Dáil debates
Wednesday, 5 July 2023
Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate
Control of Firearms
9:12 am
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wish to discuss the purpose for which the firearms expert committee was set up, why it was established and what were the wide-ranging matters relating to firearms on which the Minister of State needed advice. It is not long since I asked him a series of questions related to the firearms expert committee, which were mainly based on the serious concerns brought to me by members of gun-related organisations. These primarily included firearms holders and those who wish to engage in recreational hunting and shooting pursuits, as well as those who must carry out pest control to protect their livelihoods. They are, to put it mildly, very annoyed, at the way the whole process has been conducted and are at a loss to understand what the purpose of the firearms expert committee is. The Minister of State replied with the following answer, "The purpose of the [firearms expert committee] was to serve in an advisory capacity to me as Minister, providing guidance on a wide range of matters related to firearms licensing in the State." This was very disappointing and it was a vague response. I have spoken to many different people involved in firearms groups and to judge by what I have been told and have read so far, I have engaged in far more comprehensive consultation with representative groups than has the firearms expert committee.
I ask the Minister of State to explain why this committee was established and what was the wide range of related matters on which the Minister of State needed guidance. The firearms expert committee was established not to provide expert evidence on the issues but as a closed shop to ram through changes to suit a narrow minority of people involved. One of the committee members resigned due to the way the committee was conducting its work. Did the Department consult with this member as to why he resigned? Were any issues identified? Was any expert left on the committee after this committee member resigned?
The other vital question is whether the Department asked appointed committee members to fill out a declaration of interests. If so, were any conflicts of interest identified? If members were not asked to fill out a declaration of interests, the question is, why were they not? Was one of the independent experts appointed to the committee actually employed by the Department of Justice at the time of their appointment as an independent member of that committee? Concerned constituents have approached me and identified possible cases where members of the firearms expert committee could gain a personal, financial benefit if some of this committee's recommendations in the report were to be implemented. There is clear anger among gun users about this because it gives the impression that this whole process is not interested in making changes or improvements for the right reasons.
There is also serious anger and concern about the potential for these recommendations to leave genuine gun users with criminal charges for firearms offences for the most minor and trivial of indiscretions. To outline one example, were someone to register a firearm in County Wexford and were that person invited to shoot in County Carlow at a legitimately organised event, he or she would now become a criminal in charge of an illegal firearm. Falling foul of these things are firearms offences that could stop people getting future licences or even prevent some people from being allowed enter into different countries. It may even work against someone in a child custody case. It could also prevent someone from getting Garda vetting for a job or voluntary position in a club or organisation. It is clear that all of this has been done with little regard for the opinions of those who actually use guns. Consultation has been absent, engagement has been absent and solutions proposed are impractical and non-existent.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising her specific questions, which is why the firearms expert committee was established and what was the wide range of matters related to firearms about which the Minister formed the committee to advise on. The firearms expert committee was established to serve in an advisory capacity in respect of various firearms matters and I would like to thank the committee for its work. The firearms expert committee, FEC, was established following a request for expressions of interest from suitably qualified candidates that was published on 31 March 2022. This call was published on the Department of Justice’s website and shared among stakeholder organisations. The call for expressions of interest was administered by officials from the criminal justice policy function of the Department of Justice, which also acts as the secretariat to the committee.Appointments to the committee were made entirely in line with the process advised in the published expressions of interest document.
The FEC was made up of five members, namely, an independent chairperson, a representative of An Garda Síochána, a representative of the Department of Justice and two non-governmental ordinary members having experience of firearms. This structure was chosen to give balanced representation to both governmental and non-governmental stakeholders.
In answer to the Deputy’s question as to the matters that the committee was asked to examine, the FEC’s terms of reference remain publicly available on gov.ie. They are comprehensive and include the following: to carry out an assessment of all types of firearms which are currently licensed in the State to determine their use under the existing licensing system; to make recommendations based on the assessment of which types of firearms should be licensable in the State and for what purposes; to consider whether firearms certificates should be conditioned to specify the locations where the firearms may be used; to consider whether firearms certificates should be conditioned to limit the use of the firearm to the purpose for which the firearms certificate was sought; and to consider whether there should be a limit on the number and type of firearms a person may hold.
I assume that the Deputy has read the reports of the committee. She will be aware that they represent a comprehensive examination of the matters set out and that among the 80 or so recommendations made are various measures to improve the licensing process. The final meeting of the FEC took place on 3 March 2023. I have received its final reports, which I published on Friday, 31 March 2023 on gov.ie. In addition to publishing the final reports, I also published the minutes and a summary of each in-person meeting. For the avoidance of any doubt let me reiterate that the purpose of the FEC was to serve in an advisory capacity to me as a Minister in respect of his terms of reference and to make recommendations on a range of firearms matters for subsequent consideration. As I have emphasised before the FEC was established and throughout this process, any proposed changes to policy or legislation arising from any recommendations by the FEC will be subject to prior and extensive consultation with firearms stakeholders. To that end, an online consultation platform was developed and on 3 May 2023, I launched the FEC consultation online on gov.ie which concluded on 2 June 2023. In addition, I also have sought written submissions on the recommendations of the FEC from a range of stakeholders' organisations including the Firearms Users Representative Group, FURG, the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, the National Association of Regional Game Councils, NARGC, and others. There was no restriction put on those submissions. Now that the wider public consultation has concluded and having received the written submissions, I intend to meet such groups. Meetings are scheduled for later this week. I will meet FURGtomorrow and the IFA. I look forward to having further engagements with other stakeholders as well.
9:22 am
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am sorry but the Minister of State has failed to address any of the questions contained within. He knows well that the only person who could have been regarded an expert resigned from that committee with the damning statement that he believed the committee was a farce. I do not know how the Minister of State, in an advisory capacity, can then use reports on foot of the only expert on that committee telling him that what was going on was a farce. The Minister of State knows perfectly well and does not need me to outline the anger the gun clubs in County Wexford and around the country feel about this process.
There were 80 recommendations. Of course I read the report. So have they. This is a cart-before-the-horse performance. It would have served better had the Minister of State gone back to the model that brought in the 2009 legislation, which is exactly what the stakeholders believe was a successful model. I encourage him now, on their behalf, that rather than doing it the other way around and putting the cart before the horse, to discard the reports that are held in esteem by no one, least of all by the experts who he says compiled them when clearly, the only expert resigned from the committee and gave it a damning report. To save everybody's face in this regard, he should start again and go back to the stakeholder involvement put together for the 2009 legislation that was compiled. As the model was not broken, I am not sure why he sought to fix it. There was a consultative panel, that was from 2004, which was a successful model with which everybody agreed. If it was not broken, I am unsure why the Minister of State tried to fix it. It certainly has not worked and all it has caused is consternation. There are huge concerns among many of the gun clubs and their members and different sporting events that would make them criminals, were any of the recommendations brought in.
I await the answer to this question with interest.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, I answered the question the Deputy actually put before the House.
It was unfortunate that one of the members of the committee resigned or withdrew his support. However, he did so after the committee concluded all of its meetings and actually submitted its report which was, in fairness, quite late in the day. In regard to this process, this was just an advisory group making recommendations many of which use phrases like, for example, "to consider" or "to look at". That is all it is. These are not laws. Much fear has been generated among the gun ownership community. What is being done here is simply at a very early stage of, as I said, an advisory committee that is now starting to have extensive consultations. That is all. When I read or hear such words as "new Government laws", or "people being criminalised", as if laws were suddenly about to be enacted, I note we are at a very early stage in a very long process whereby all of the gun communities will be considered and consulted before anything is brought in. There are no new laws about to happen here. Nobody is about to be made a criminal-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why did he move away from the model?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy will let me answer, please. There is no point in shouting me down.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am not shouting you down. I am asking-----
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody is about to be criminalised.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Can we go back to the 2004 model?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I read misinformation in my own local newspaper where somebody said that organisations are going to be charged €1,000 a year. This figure was plucked out of someone's backside.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That was not my statement.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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No, but it was in the newspaper. I am giving examples of the kind of misrepresentations that are being put out there----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Can we go back to the 2004 model?
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----that are creating unnecessary fear among the gun community.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputy Murphy, please, let the Minister of State speak.
James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Make no mistake either, we always have keep things like firearms under review. That is important as well.