Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fáiltím roimh an deis seo labhairt leis an Teach faoi na mór-theipeanna rialachais chorparáidigh a tháinig chun solais in RTÉ le coicís anuas. Luaigh mé an ról ríthábhachtach atá ag craolachán seirbhíse poiblí a fheidhmíonn go láidir agus a d’fheidhmigh go héifeachtach chun an daonlathas a chosaint cúpla uair ó tháinig na cúrsaí uafásacha seo chun cinn. Is fiú béim a leagan air arís ag tús an ráitis seo áfach, agus ar urlár an Tí.

I welcome this opportunity to address the House on the serious corporate governance failings that have come to light in RTÉ within the past two weeks. I have stated this a number of times since these shocking matters arose, but it is worth emphasising again, at the commencement of these statements and on the floor of the House, the critical role that robust and properly functioning public service broadcasting plays in maintaining the health of our democracy.

At a time in which disinformation and misinformation are on the rise, there has never been a greater need for independent, reliable voices and institutions that are trusted by audiences. Our common public sphere ultimately rests on a shared understanding of the facts. This can only be provided by truthful, impartial, objective and fair reporting provided by an independent media sector characterised by strong, accountable public service broadcasters.

On becoming Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in 2020, one of my priorities was to deliver on the commitment in the programme for Government to put in place a Future of Media Commission. That commission was formed within three months of my coming into office in September 2020. It was tasked with undertaking a comprehensive and far-reaching examination of Ireland's broadcast, print and online media and to consider how media can remain sustainable and resilient in delivering public service aims over the next decade.

The report of the Future of Media Commission and the recommendations therein, which were published in July 2022, form a framework to support the development of Ireland’s media sector and to ensure that it remains viable, independent and capable of delivering public service aims. I remain committed to supporting the implementation of the many recommendations in the report of the Future of Media Commission that assist our local, regional and national media organisations and independent production sector. I also remain committed to supporting independent, accountable public service broadcasters that are capable of fulfilling their statutory duty of providing television, radio and other media services that have the character of a public service.

Ever since its predecessor, Radio Éireann, began broadcasting, RTÉ has been at the centre of Ireland's public service broadcasting. As I said outside Government Buildings earlier, RTÉ created a public space for the people of Ireland to speak of and to one another. At its best, it held up a mirror to Irish society that revealed not only the good in our society but also the many injustices.

Our Irish culture also found a new expression, in Irish and English, on radio, then television and, today, through new digital modes of expression. Through public service broadcasting, our artists and writers discovered a new national audience composed of their fellow citizens, an audience hungry for new knowledge, experience and insights and one that wants to see their own dreams, aspirations and struggles reflected back to them.

From an economic as well as a cultural standpoint, RTÉ today plays an important role in sustaining an Irish independent production sector that has the capacity to foster Irish creative talent and develop distinctly Irish films, television, radio and animation productions. RTÉ also plays a central role in the most intense and important phases of our democracy by providing impartial coverage and a neutral platform during election and referendum campaigns.

However, all of this rests on trust - trust not only between a broadcaster and its audience but between a national institution and the people of the country. The revelations of the past number of days have been an absolute betrayal of that trust. They have threatened to undermine the principles of public service broadcasting itself, which are, after all, based fundamentally on revealing the truth. People need their trust in RTÉ restored. The glaring corporate governance failings that have come to light and the culture within RTÉ that enables them must be addressed as a priority. We must have full and immediate transparency so that any other issues that emerge may be brought to light without delay.

As Deputies are aware, Grant Thornton has been commissioned by the RTÉ board to conduct a further review into the understatement by RTÉ of the additional €120,000 related to the period 2017 to 2019. The first Grant Thornton report, published by RTÉ last week, indicates that this €120,000 end-of-contract payment was not, in fact, paid. The new Grant Thornton review is seeking to establish the facts as to why, if not paid, it was deducted from the published figures of Mr. Tubridy.

While the chair of the RTÉ Board has advised me that this further review will take up to four weeks, I have asked for it to be accelerated due to the extreme urgency and seriousness of this situation. I am advised by RTÉ that work is progressing ahead of schedule now and I have been assured that all concerned are using their best endeavours to complete the review as soon as possible.

However, in order to help restore trust, the Government must take action. It is essential to address the governance structure and organisational culture that enabled this issue to arise and to prevent the recurrence of this or similar issues in the future. In addition, it is also essential to address certain HR issues and matters arising from the use of external contractors and the fees paid to them, which are also critical to help to restore public confidence in RTÉ. Accordingly, and to ensure that the totality of issues at RTÉ are addressed, the Government today approved an independent root-and-branch examination of RTÉ comprising two parallel elements focused on, first, a review of governance and culture and, second, a review of contractor fees, human resources and other matters.

The reviews will be overseen by two expert advisory committees, which will be assisted by professional services and have a secretariat drawn from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. The review of governance and culture will be overseen by a committee chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan and will include Dr. Margaret Cullen and a third member who will be appointed in the coming days. Professor Brennan and Dr. Cullen are both acknowledged experts in the fields of corporate governance and I am very grateful that they have agreed to contribute their time and expertise. The review of contractor fees, HR and other matters will be overseen by a committee chaired by Mr. Brendan McGinty and will include Ms Patricia King and a third member who will be appointed in the coming days. Mr. McGinty and Ms King will bring their vast experience and judgment to this task. I thank them for their commitment.

A process will be put in place to ensure the cross co-ordination between the two elements of the examination, which will be carried out separately but in parallel. The terms of reference for the review of governance and culture will focus on conducting an examination of RTÉ’s corporate governance framework and advise on whether the corporate governance framework reflects best governance practice for commercial State bodies, as set out in the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies; complies with the relevant legislative provisions which apply to RTÉ; and includes a robust system of internal governance, including appropriate divisions of responsibilities, operational procedures, internal checks and balances relevant to the organisational context of RTÉ, and direction and oversight by the executive board and RTÉ board. This will include an examination of the barter account and its governance.

The terms of reference also provide for an assessment of any organisational cultural characteristics and ways of conducting business within RTÉ identified from the corporate governance examination and that are likely to have contributed to the findings in the two Grant Thornton reviews commissioned by RTÉ. This will also involve a look at issues such as staff morale and engagement as well as the impact of RTÉ’s commercial income activities on its public service remit. Arising from this assessment, the report will make recommendations to reform organisational culture, which will support staff engagement and a positive working environment to deliver a more open, transparent and accountable organisation.

I am also conscious that there are wider issues within RTÉ with regard to contracts and the terms and conditions of employment. I have noted the comments of Mr. Robert Shortt, the staff member elected to the board of RTÉ, who, at last week’s Joint Committee on Media, Tourism, Arts, Culture, Sport and the Gaeltacht meeting, stated that many in RTÉ are uncomfortable with the high earnings of certain presenters, particularly in the context of an industry that is rapidly changing within an environment of declining commercial revenue.

Last week, I also met representatives of the RTÉ trade union group, including the National Union of Journalists, who voiced these and other concerns.

The review of contractor fees, human resources and other matters will have the following terms of reference: to examine oversight and mechanisms by which RTÉ engages presenters and contractors, including fees, the use of agents, the impact on costs borne by RTÉ and the governance of same; to examine issues arising from the use of short-term employment contracts at all levels; to examine employment terms and conditions with particular emphasis on gender equality, diversity and inclusion and whether any of the existing recruitment and HR practices, in particular those outlined, have an impact on equality and opportunity; and to make recommendations to me in relation to the above matters.

I am also cognisant of and wish to acknowledge and commend the work last week of both the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media and the Committee of Public Accounts in their deliberations with the representatives of the board and executive board of RTÉ. Their work has also helped to inform the areas to be covered in the examination. I will also, if necessary, extend the terms of reference of the reports to take account of any further issues that come to light in the course of their work.

It is imperative that we get this right and allow the reviews sufficient time to do the job properly. It is expected that the examination will take six months from the commencement of work. However, I will expect to receive periodic interim reports on progress during the review process. I also expect that RTÉ itself will continue to robustly assess its practices and review all matters relevant to this issue, with a view to ensuring full transparency and immediately addressing any failings or weaknesses.

To further underpin the work of the expert advisory committees, I intend to invoke my powers under section 109(7)(a) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 to appoint a forensic accountant to examine the books or other records of account of RTÉ in respect of any financial year or other period. The forensic accountant will initially direct its focus to the barter account and any other off-balance sheet accounts. My officials are currently progressing this matter in conjunction with the Office for Government Procurement.

This comprehensive and far-reaching examination will examine governance, culture and practices in RTÉ in an unprecedented manner. Public service broadcasting should be independent and have public interest as its core tenet. It can only do so if it is open, transparent and accountable to the public. The many committed professionals who work across all functions in RTÉ are owed that. The public, the audience central to the core of RTÉ's mission, is owed that. The Oireachtas, as the representative body of the people, is owed that. Our collective trust and confidence must be regained.

I have emphasised the need for the board and executive at RTÉ to work constructively with all examinations and reviews into the organisation in the weeks ahead. The chair of the board has given me her assurance on this point. I will reiterate this when, this Friday, 7 July, I meet the chair and the incoming director general.

Tuigim go rímhaith an bóthar deacair atá rompu sa tréimhse amach romhainn. Mar sin féin, táim lánchinnte gur féidir muinín a atógáil má léiríonn gach duine atá páirteach anois an tiomantas don fhírinne agus do leas an phobail atá i gcroílár chraoltóireacht seirbhíse poiblí. I do not underestimate the difficult road they have ahead of them over the coming period. However, I am confident that trust can be restored if all those involved now demonstrate the dedication to the truth and the public good that is the essence of public service broadcasting.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would all agree that RTÉ, our public, State broadcaster, has been brought into disrepute as an entire organisation by the actions of a few at top management level. The matter first came into the public domain when the Deloitte audit of RTÉ's books finally revealed the overpayment of its top presenter in March 2023. The RTÉ executive board knew of these overpayments. It stayed quiet, hoping it would not be noticed and that the auditors were as inept at their job as members of the RTÉ executive board have been found to be at their jobs. Deloitte missed the payments for almost six years. Those years' books should now be reaudited and the truth made known about how that happened. I am glad to hear the Minister announce two reviews, particularly the announcement that a forensic accountant will start going through the barter account. That is good news and it is a start.

Those overpayments have been a doorway that opened onto a scandal that gets bigger with each statement, grows wider with each discovery and shines more light on mismanagement and excesses that would shame the most extravagant of Celtic tiger era excesses. These efforts alone, to conceal top-up payments of €345,000, with false invoicing, UK-based barter accounts and a mentality of asking no questions, have destroyed RTÉ's bond with its staff and the general public.

Then we have the €1.25 million barter account, a slush fund that charges a 35% handling fee on transactions. We know the commercial section needs to do networking but the sheer extravagance is the issue. Some €110,000 was spent on travel and hotels for the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan. We know of the ten-year IRFU season tickets at a cost of €138,000 and the €26,000 for the 2019 soccer Champions League final in Madrid. We know of the 40 guests, mainly RTÉ staff and family members, with a few advertising agents, who enjoyed going to the U2 concert in Croke Park from the premium level after a coach was hired to take them the short distance from wining and dining in the Twenty2 restaurant in Drumcondra to Croke Park. We know of the 70 or so people who played golf in the K Club, with dinner, a drinks reception and prizes after their round of golf. There was lunch on early arrival and goody bags. There was no holding back on that do. This was at around the same time that there were reports that RTÉ was considering the future of the Lyric FM radio station. All of these events, those that we know of, were fully or partly paid for through the barter account. Other expenses were paid for using credit cards separate from the barter account. The barter account should be fully audited, from its inception to today, along with the separate credit cards used to pay for those lavish expenses, all from taxpayers' money.

RTÉ staff, past and present, have been in contact with me and my colleagues to express their anger at the mismanagement, their fury at the waste of money and their hope that maybe this time, the RTÉ executive board has been found out and the staff will be listened to, their needs will be given consideration and the unfair treatment many of them have faced will finally come to an end. That includes bogus self-employment contracts, the substandard equipment in some areas, the gender pay gap and the language pay gap. I could go on.

Many of the concerns raised by staff deserve to be investigated as part of the wider review. I think the Minister referred to that being taken on board. That will be vital if things are to change. The RTÉ executive board's culture and disconnect from staff is stark. The executive board's arrogance and self-importance are striking. Its attitude towards the rest of the staff is "Let them eat cake."

We await all of the reports and information. This cannot be buried in paperwork, reports and reviews. RTÉ is the State broadcaster, receiving State funding, and this Government has an obligation and responsibility to ensure that the inside culture of some in top management in RTÉ, which is clearly rotten to the core, is rooted out once and for all. The Government's review of governance, culture and the external contract fees has to be thorough, wide-ranging and totally transparent.

There have to be consequences for those involved.

If there are not, nothing will change. Judging by what we have learned so far, members of the executive board, including the then director general, underwrote a separate commercial deal for RTÉ's highest paid presenter and paid that out of public funds, to the value of €345,000. We also know it deliberately concealed these payments by raising false invoices and put those payments through a UK-based barter account. It deliberately published an understated salary for RTÉ's top presenter, knowing full well the salary it was publishing was false, and blew taxpayers' money through a slush fund on the most extravagant, Celtic tiger-type splurging, while all the other workers took a 15% pay cut.

The members of the executive board and any others involved need to be held to account, and it is very difficult to see how they can remain in situ, given it all happened under their watch. Again, the most important thing is that there will have to be consequences for this rotten, inside culture that existed if we are to have trust, transparency and accountability in RTÉ ever again. Without them, nothing will change and the board will have destroyed any shred of credibility the public and the workers might have.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the announcement by the Minister earlier that a forensic accountant will be appointed, under the Broadcasting Act 2009, to audit the accounts of RTÉ, starting with the now-infamous barter account. At a hearing of the Committee of Public Accounts last week, we got an insight into how the €1 million-plus slush fund has been used by RTÉ's top executives, with €110,000 for a trip to the Rugby World Cup in Tokyo, Japan; €138,000 for ten-year Irish Rugby Football Union, IRFU, tickets; €26,000 for Champions League final tickets; a bus to travel a few hundred yards from a posh restaurant to a U2 concert at Croke Park; and, of course, trips to the K Club and golf outings with all the trimmings. A full list of the transactions from the barter account needs to be published and provided to the Committee of Public Accounts.

As Chair of that committee, I welcome also the Minister's announcement of two separate, parallel reviews into RTÉ to look at governance and RTÉ's engagement with contractors and their agents. That is essential. There is something rotten about the relationship between RTÉ and contractors' agents and the way they engage. I do not believe we have fully got to the bottom of that area, but we need to get there. At last week's committee hearing, it was revealed that a very significant MS Teams call, as I understand, took place in March 2022 between Dee Forbes and Ryan Tubridy's agent, Noel Kelly. The note of the minutes of that meeting needs to be produced. At that meeting, we have been led to understand, Tubridy's so-called tripartite agreement was signed off on. I believe those minutes will bring significant clarity to the matter. The committee does not want to see any attempts by RTÉ to hide behind legal privilege. Legal privilege needs to be waived and RTÉ needs to do the decent thing. The note of the meeting is central to our examinations and, indeed, the examination by everybody else who will look at the issue, and the Committee of Public Accounts should not be held back from seeing it. In the past two weeks, we have uncovered a commercial deal underwritten at a cost to the taxpayer of €225,000. Had it continued throughout the five years to 2025, as was planned, it would have amounted to €375,000, on top of the €120,000 in loyalty fees over the previous term, between 2017 and 2019. When that is all added together, there was to be a top-up of just under €500,000.

There has been evidence of payments having been concealed, diversionary routes created and designed for concealment to raise no fault, invoices to agents for consultancy services, and cock-and-bull stories to the effect they had not provided loyalty payments, credit notes or a secret five-year tripartite agreement. That would not be good enough in a private sector company, and it is certainly not good enough in the public sector broadcaster and cannot be tolerated. Ordinary journalists and other workers at RTÉ, as well as workers and families throughout the State who struggle to pay their annual TV licence fee, are rightly disgusted at what has been exposed. One mother from Tullamore, County Offaly, in my constituency was wrongly arrested and brought to Mountjoy Prison over a mistake regarding her TV licence. She had been saving €4 stamps for months and had collected €144, just €16 off the full sum, yet she was hauled off to Mountjoy Prison.

This is in contrast to how individuals at the very top of RTÉ were able to act, devoid of oversight or governance and thinking they would never be accountable, but for the Deloitte audit. How did it happen that this was not seen by internal audits before that? I fail to see how this was able to go on since at least 2017 without coming to light and without anybody saying "Stop". Judging by what we have been led to believe, you would nearly think all these senior executives were living in different countries and did not talk to one another, yet they describe themselves as the executive board. There can be only one board, namely, the appointed board, and everybody, including the director general, has to be accountable to that board. If we do not have that, we have nothing. We also need full transparency. There cannot be parallel or separate financial systems to set up circular or diversionary routes. Diversionary routes are used for concealment and nothing else.

As Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts, I call for six further witnesses to be called before the committee, namely, Dee Forbes; the former director general Noel Curran; Ryan Tubridy; his agent, Noel Kelly; the former chief financial officer, CFO, Breda O'Keeffe; and the director of content, Jim Jennings. Invitations will be sent this week and I expect all six to attend. Their knowledge of what occurred at RTÉ for years is invaluable. If they refuse to attend, we will use our powers to compel them to do so, but they should do the decent thing as public servants and show up. I call on them to do that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Having participated in almost nine hours of committee meetings last week when Oireachtas Members questioned various RTÉ executives, I am disappointed at how little regarding what has happened or who is responsible has been unearthed, although what has been exposed at both the media committee and the Committee of Public Accounts has been absolutely shocking, to say the least. If I had a euro for every person who told me over the weekend that they will not pay their TV licence fee on foot of what has happened, I would be a very wealthy person, probably able to fund RTÉ into the future. That is how much damage has been done to public confidence in the national broadcaster.

We are currently very aware of the dangers arising from the level of misinformation disseminated online, and of a public broadcasting body’s role and responsibility in countering the wall of untruths designed to cause maximum disruption and upheaval throughout communities. I hope those at the centre of this scandal at RTÉ will reflect on the potential damage their actions have wrought and will seek to remedy the matter with the truth to allow for a full reform of the public broadcaster to take place. I have found it especially disappointing that, to date, neither committee has heard evidence from Dee Forbes, Ryan Tubridy or Noel Kelly, the central figures of this affair.

It has been clear from the outset that a cosy consensus and an insider culture exist within RTÉ and have done so in Irish public bodies for far too long. Individuals at the heart of RTÉ have been allowed to act in a manner they saw fit, accountable to no one, in a culture absent of anything approaching an appropriate level of oversight or governance. Last week, there was an outpouring of anger and absolute frustration from ordinary journalists and other workers within RTÉ. We were told of the constraints they are forced to labour under as the fat cats at the top of RTÉ live their best lives, concealing payments and enjoying global sporting trips at taxpayers' expense, at a time when workers at RTÉ were being told by management that the station was in a serious state of financial trouble, with many staff forced into bogus self-employment contracts.

The existence of a slush fund has been uncovered to the value of €1.25 million, which was used to top up the salary of one of the already grossly overpaid presenters through a complex scheme designed to conceal payments, from which Ryan Tubridy benefited by more than €150,000 over two of those years. These payments were allegedly approved by the then director general Dee Forbes. Other payments from this slush fund include €111,000 to send the commercial director and five others to the Rugby World Cup in Japan in 2019. There was €18,500 per head spent on this junket, €138,000 was spent on ten-year IRFU tickets, €26,000 was spent on a Champions League final in 2019, there were tickets and buses to a U2 concert for clients, RTÉ management and their spouses. There was also golf, wining, dining at the K Club. That is only the tip of the iceberg that we know about at this stage.

At the Committee of Public Accounts, and at the media committee, I asked for the barter accounts going back to 2012 to be submitted. I welcome the appointment by the Minister of a forensic accountant and I look forward to seeing what is unearthed by that work. I believe that those responsible for the scandal at RTÉ need to be made to face the consequences of their actions. The drip-feeding of information that we were treated to last week needs to end. We need full accounting of what has occurred at RTÉ. There needs to be full transparency, full accountability, and far-reaching reform. Witnesses cannot be allowed to continue to hide from their actions. They need to be compelled to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts. First and foremost, Dee Forbes must answer the allegations that have been made against her. While I welcome the announcement of the establishment of the two separate reviews into RTÉ, it is important that the Opposition parties get full sight of the terms of reference that the Minister has announced, to ensure there is the full level of robustness required. I questioned the members of the RTÉ executive board last Thursday as to whether Ryan Tubridy's decision to resign was influenced by the fact that the concerns raised by the auditors from Deloitte around the invoices to Mr. Tubridy were leaked. I was told by an executive member that it was.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy's time is up.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will conclude now. This is not acceptable. The chief financial officer at RTÉ, Mr. Richard Collins stated in his evidence that it was his view that the taxpayer was defrauded. This leads to the potential for a full Garda investigation into allegations of fraud at RTÉ, which could end up running parallel to the two reviews the Minister has announced. Dee Forbes and Ryan Tubridy need to come before the Committee of Public Accounts-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Time please, Deputy.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to answer questions about the whole affair. I will conclude. I welcome the work that has been done but the people in RTÉ know what they have done and-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is way over and is eating into his colleague's time.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----they need to come forward to both committees and fully participate in the reviews to ensure we get to the bottom of what is going on.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps the Deputies have a different arrangement. I have it down here as four and a half minutes for Deputy Donnelly and now it is three and a half minutes.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. We are now just weeks into this scandal and for RTÉ, it just gets worse with daily photographs of highly-paid RTÉ presenters using RTÉ State-owned properties as a backdrop to their latest commercial advertisements and promotions. This needs to stop now and RTÉ management needs to get a grip on this immediately until there is a root and branch review of these practices within RTÉ.

I welcome the Government's commitment to a forensic audit of RTÉ and its commercial entity. It is clear there has been a culture, long suspected by many, of senior people in RTÉ being paid eye-watering salaries for a station that is paid for by the State and by the people through their television licence, and which is constantly coming to the Government to increase the licence fee. While I am discussing the licence fee, as a family support worker I once had to support a very sick woman in court. She was the mother of five children whose finances were below the poverty line. I stood in the court in the old Richmond Hospital and saw this mother absolutely terrified that she would get a massive fine or, worse, go to jail for non-payment of that fine. In fairness to the judge, he actually saw that this woman was in very poor health and he did not impose any fines on her. I look at it now I see the money that was used by RTÉ to wine and dine its clients, to pay its talent such unbelievable salaries and in one case, the payment through a barter account of several hundred thousand euro.

At the Committee of Public Accounts, it was clear that the RTÉ board and executive had been in emergency session from the previous meeting. However, their responses there still left a lot of us scratching our heads in disbelief. Comments from the RTÉ chairperson at least cut through some of the evasiveness from others at the committee when she stated:

As a trained accountant and a former financial controller, I am appalled as to how payments were recorded and presented in the RTÉ accounts. ... It appears to me that this was an act designed to deceive.

At the same time, many workers in RTÉ have had their pay cut. They have had to struggle with jobs not being filled and with equipment being substandard. We can all understand their utter anger and frustration being misled by RTÉ management and by one of the highest-paid presenters in the State. The protests we have seen at RTÉ over the past weeks is pent-up anger at what they themselves have seen at RTÉ for many years.

What we have heard about RTÉ's use of its commercial income to spend massive amounts of money on entertaining their clients is appalling. We now know that the barter account was used to spend at least €275,000 on rugby tickets, concert tickets and a bus to bring people from Drumcondra to Croke Park. I am a regular user of Croke Park. My God, imagine getting a bus paid for from Drumcondra to Croke Park. One guy said to me this week that if anybody knows what it is like going to a concert there, one would be quicker walking than wasting time and money to sit on a bus. RTÉ executives, however, believed they were different. On the issue of tickets for the rugby and the Champions League matches, we need to know who got these tickets. I note that at the committee last week, there was a refusal to name these people or their companies by those who were before the committee to try to bring clarity and transparency to the proceedings. We need to know who knew what and when, and if any illegality took place using the barter account.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For more than two weeks now, political debate has been utterly dominated by the controversy within our national broadcaster with the revelation of secret payments and cover-ups there. The reason it has commanded so much attention is because RTÉ is so central to our day-to-day lives and to our society. As our public service broadcaster, it sets the day-to-day news agenda. It is central to our democracy, being outside the control of profit-driven shareholders or billionaires, like so much other national and international media.

It is our public service broadcaster. I recall the Minister's predecessor, Michael D. Higgins saying during the 2008 debate on the Broadcasting Act, that we must recall the clear distinction between public service broadcasting, on the one hand, and the public service broadcaster on the other. There is a crucial difference between licence obligations imposed on private media organisations to provide news, weather and other public information roles. There is a distinction between that and the separate and vital role played by the State-sanctioned national broadcaster that is supposed to reflect all the diversity in Ireland, and which is supposed to represent our best values. RTÉ lists its values as outward looking, creative, respectful, collaborative and transparent. That is what has caused this issue to dominate proceedings to such an extent because we see these values as being absent in the total failure of governance. An article was published on the RTÉ website today, by Oonagh Smyth from "Prime Time" referring to the total failure of corporate governance. That is the phrase that has really been dominating the discussion about the secret payments. It is not just about the payments themselves; it is about the failure of governance involved.

I wish to pay tribute to the staff of RTÉ. Within the last two weeks, while their organisation has been the focus of so much controversy, they have kept doing their jobs, particularly the staff in current affairs and in news who have covered this issue robustly and have presented strong analysis. They have spoken both publicly and privately about their sense of betrayal at the organisation and the way the organisation has behaved. We have all heard Emma O'Kelly's words as a representative of the National Union of Journalists within RTÉ. She wrote in the Irish Examineron Saturday that the low-paid staff are sickened by the revelations in RTÉ and they are talking about a them and us culture at the broadcaster. One staff member told her last week that it felt like a kick in the guts. This is why it is so important that we express our solidarity with staff within RTÉ and our solidarity with the concept of a public service broadcaster.

The Labour Party is proud to support public service broadcasting and the national broadcaster. We have done so since the foundation of what became Radio Éireann in 1926.

Indeed, the Labour Party and Michael D. Higgins established Teilifís na Gaeilge, now TG4, which was opposed by many at the time and considered an unnecessary adventure. It was described as "Teilifís DeLorean" at one stage. Of course, now we see it as a vitally important expansion of public service broadcasting through the medium of our national language, ár dteanga náisiúnta, which is so well enhanced and protected by TG4. We need to restate the crucial importance of the public service broadcaster and not allow this crisis to be used to shrink or destroy RTÉ. It must emerge stronger and better than before but to do so, many changes must take place.

During the pandemic, we were all reminded of the vital role a public service broadcaster plays. RTÉ played a critical role during lockdown, providing information, analysis and much-needed education for our children. That is it at its best. It is essential that we restore confidence and pride in RTÉ and ensure its financial future is secure. There is a requirement for absolute transparency. The drip-feed of revelations around the secret payments and around governance issues has done massive harm. The marathon sessions at the Oireachtas media committee and the Committee of Public Accounts have generated more questions that still demand answers. There are outstanding questions. Others have spoken already about the questions that are still out there. There is one illustrative example that sums it up, and that is the fact that we still do not know what the losses were from Toy Show the Musical. It may be a relatively small drop in the ocean but it is a huge one given how much advertising went into that. We need to know if the values of public service broadcasting were sacrificed in pursuit of profit, in an endeavour that was ultimately loss-making. We need to know what those losses were so we can assess what better use that money could have been put to elsewhere.

Turning to the review the Minister announced today, we very much welcome that announcement. We welcome the Minister's statement that it would be a root-and-branch examination. It is going to be conducted in two strands and chaired by Professor Niamh Brennan and Dr. Margaret Cullen. We welcome those appointments. The first strand will be about governance and culture and the second, critically, will be a separate review of contractor fees, human resources and other workplace matters. We very much welcome that second strand. This day last week during Leaders' Questions, I raised with the Taoiseach the need to ensure that workplace culture in RTÉ, employment conditions and, crucially, the issue of bogus self-employment would be considered in the review. The Taoiseach at that point seemed somewhat sceptical and thought that might be too broad but I am very glad the Minister has included it within the terms of that parallel strand because that is vital. We are hearing that from the National Union of Journalists, NUJ, and we have been hearing it for some time.

Just this afternoon, Séamus Dooley from the NUJ spoke at the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, biennial delegate conference and welcomed this review. He said it was a welcome first step in restoring public confidence. It will also be greatly welcomed by those working within RTÉ, including the staff and the many freelancers who for so long have been kept at arm's length by the organisation, while providing vital work and being as much part of the talent pool as the so-called talent at the top end of the organisation. We have been hearing for years about the poor conditions for freelancers with the low fees and rounds of cost savings and redundancies, with RTÉ actually looking for more money at a time when we now know these secret payments were being made. I very much welcome, as do all in the Labour Party, the two strands of the review.

I also welcome the appointment of the forensic accountant that the Minister intends to make under section 109 of the Broadcasting Act. That will presumably happen alongside the four-week process of the further Grant Thornton report. The Minister might say when she anticipates the forensic accountant appointment will be made and how broadly drawn the remit of that accountancy exercise will be. I note the Minister has said she is reserving the right to broaden the scope depending on what else emerges from the committee hearings, and we are all conscious that there are a number of different parallel strands, but that is important.

The emergency motion put forward by the NUJ today points out that one consequence of the secret payments is that they were kept secret by the director general - it appears, or certainly by the organisation - from the trade union group and therefore, the unions within RTÉ were negotiating in good faith with management, over years it seems, despite the existence of secret undisclosed payments negotiated with a third-party agency for someone who was already highly paid. That clearly undermines trust in industrial relations machinery generally because the unions were negotiating on the basis of financial information with which they had been supplied that we now know was not accurate. What the unions are seeking, as outlined by Emma O'Kelly at the weekend, is fourfold. These are four reasonable asks that we hope the review will focus on. First is a cap on earnings within RTÉ to end this practice of extremely high earnings. The second is an end to third-party contracts. The third ask is for RTÉ to be a model of best practice and fourth, for a sustainable funding system to be put in place into the future.

The Minister set up a Future of Media Commission and some of those recommendations around reform of the licence system have been parked. We all understand that existential matters of credibility and governance have been disclosed in recent weeks that need to be resolved first. Undoubtedly, however, the decision on the future funding model must be grasped because we all know the TV licence model is outdated and no longer fit for purpose. We have looked, as I am sure the Minister has, at Finland and the progressive income tax introduced there to replace the pre-existing licence fee that was rather similar to our own. That model might be a more appropriate one as it would no longer be based on the number of TV sets in the house, which seems so outdated when people are streaming content in so many different ways.

We must ensure that what emerges from this is a public service broadcaster that has its credibility restored, that has good practice - best practice - in corporate governance, with a radical reform of internal decision-making and checks and balances structures. I am looking at comments like those of Conor Power, who said the key question for that governance audit must be why this did not come to light sooner. If we can answer that, we can see an appropriate way forward to construct a model of corporate governance that has appropriate checks and balances within it, that does not give quite so much power to the decision-making of one person and that will ensure restoration of public confidence and trust in what is a crucial part of our democracy and our democratic system, that is, our national public service broadcaster.

We very much welcome the review. We look forward to working with colleagues in government and across the House through the committee system and elsewhere. I ask that the interim reports and the final report come before the Oireachtas. I acknowledge they will be submitted to the Minister but it is important that we, as legislators and public representatives, also have an opportunity to debate the findings of both reviews.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the news today that the Minister will be commencing an independent, root-and-branch examination of RTÉ and a review of contractor fees, including for those on short-term employment contracts and whether any of the existing recruitment and HR practices have an impact on equality and opportunity. The only thing we can say is that our trust in our public service television and radio station has broken. Many people working there have been hurt by the revelations, hearing about deals that were not available to everyone in the public service provider when they were forced to take pay cuts. The top earners earn too much and, as previous speakers have said, they should be capped.

People who work at RTÉ have been talking about the lack of support for younger journalists and people on zero-hour contracts. The freelancers have told us of their battles for fair pay and conditions too. It is the same for screen producers and writers looking for their opportunity to be on the national broadcaster. That is the issue. I have spoken to a lot of them. It is a huge concern.

RTÉ chiefs have let us down. There have been shocking governance failings within RTÉ. At a time when impartial media is vital, we need public media that is fit for purpose. In a world of fake news and upheaval, we need media we can trust. We need it to be able to hold decision-makers to account and to cover topics that profit-driven media will not touch. RTÉ has had our ears and our eyes for 63 years and has provided a public space for the people of Ireland to speak to each other, to see each other and experience society in real time. It has reflected the best of us and shone a light on the worst of our stories. It has also given a platform to unique and hidden voices. That is really important.

We need to restore trust here and to do that, we need everyone working together. It is so important that at the meeting this Friday between the Minister and the incoming director general of RTÉ, Kevin Bakhurst, and the chair of the RTÉ's board, Siún Ní Raghallaigh, plans are discussed on how RTÉ will co-operate and facilitate the completion of the examination, as well as the immediate next steps they are going to take to restore trust and confidence in RTÉ.

I have spoken to many people this week, and received phone calls to my office, as I am sure other Deputies and Ministers have. The issue of the TV licence has come up on several occasions. This has had a big impact when people heard about trips and tickets that were bought and paid for. I saw this myself. A lady who is a pensioner called me about this. She has family members with children going back to school and they are struggling to make ends meet. She told me that they all struggled to pay the TV licence, particularly people with young families and outgoings such as mortgages. As a grandmother, she said she found it very hard when she hears these stories. We need to get trust back. I believe that the Minister will do so. I believe RTÉ will come back to the way it was before. Much work has to be done. Trust and confidence are going to be the big issues for the people of Ireland.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

First, I commend both committees of the House on the manner in which they have conducted the meetings to date. I wish to support the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, Deputy Stanley, in his request today regarding those who should appear before the committee and regarding the paperwork he has requested. Moreover, the powers given to the Committee of Public Accounts need to ensure that it has compellability and that the committee has the right to send for persons and papers, as is the case with an investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

I also would like to know why the Comptroller and Auditor General has not been involved in this. The Government could have given full powers to the Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out the respective analysis of the taxpayers' money that went into RTÉ. I have asked umpteen times for the powers of the Committee of Public Accounts to be extended to local government and to the examination of any taxpayers' money that has been allocated to an agency, where it needs to be investigated. Over the past ten years, every Government has failed to grasp the issue of audit. If we go back to the banking collapse and the financial crisis, the auditors said that the banks were okay; they were solvent. Two days later, we were all gone bust. Those same auditors are now being asked to look at RTÉ. Did we learn anything at all from them?. No, we did not. We should be looking outside the State for auditors who are not compromised in any way and who understand the role of governance. We need to have governance as a rules-based approach. Until we make these changes, we are going to have these crises and not just in RTÉ. We have already had a crisis in An Garda Síochána, in Horse Sport Ireland and local government and nothing has been learned. I ask that all of the paperwork, including the contract with Renault, be made available openly. Let us see what is going on in RTÉ and let us respond accordingly.

What happened in the audit committee? Why did no auditor or accountant pick this up over a period of, say, ten years? It was never picked up, nobody saw anything. The audit committee and the Government over those years have failed and we need to do something extraordinary to rescue the reputation of RTÉ. We need to put in place mechanisms that will protect the workers and will ensure that any hard-nosed agent acting on behalf of anyone working with RTÉ is held to account. The question arising from that is, when did the negotiations take place. Who signed off on the agreement? Who signed off on the payments?

To go back to the valuable work done by the Committee of Public Accounts, it was like extracting teeth listening to that committee meeting. That shows how deep the culture is in RTÉ of avoiding all of the questions. The transparency that all of us are asking for is not present in those hearings. This tells me there is a huge issue beyond just this matter. We can look at Ryan Tubridy or any of the rest of them but what we should be looking at is who did the deal and what happened on the RTÉ side. That is our job here. Corruption starts at the top and we need to look at the possibilities of all of that, right down through the organisation. To the Minister, who sits at Cabinet, I say there is an urgent need to look at the reform of the Committee of Public Accounts, the extension of its powers and of the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. It has been avoided for years and years. As long as that continues, the message going out from the Government is lip service being paid to governance and transparency. This will blow over, like many other issues that have faced organisations in the State. The politics of it will be dealt with. We had this grand debate. I must leave four minutes for my colleague here, which I will do, but is it not another disgrace that backbenchers are limited to that four minutes? We cannot fully flesh out the issues that we might know about. By restricting the Opposition parties and backbenchers, the Government is now avoiding the issue by limiting the debate and that just adds further to the scandal. I ask the Minister to insist that the questions are answered and to insist that Deputy Stanley and the other committee are duly supported and to insist on honesty and truth, because we are not getting it.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like others, I want to speak on the importance of public service broadcasting and about media that measures the public benefit, not simply the economic cost. In commercial media we see shock, anger and division often being used to gather and hold audiences. These audiences are then trussed up and sold on to advertisers. The only reason the audiences are pulled in is to simply sell them on to advertisers and the public benefit is lost. We have seen the rot that can cause to our society. We have also seen the importance of public service broadcasting in terms of independent examination. I welcome the Minister's root and branch review because that is exactly what public service broadcasting should be doing every day. It is what good journalism does in here and outside every day. It is fair to say that the staff of RTÉ feel betrayed. We have heard what the unions had to say. Other Deputies have spoken about the two-tier system, where those at the top are looked after but nobody else is.

The public feels betrayed. The taxpayer and the licence payer is deeply betrayed. One thing that needs to come from this review and from RTÉ in general, is to remember that it is a public service and that it must return to that public service. If that requires radical change, then let us have it. Let us look at the funding model and ask how much has the public service model been corrupted by the advertising that RTÉ tries to sell. How much of the public service model has been corrupted by the wild salaries? Surely we should be looking at pay caps or tying the salaries for all to the public sector pay scales in order that everyone there is treated fairly. These are fundamental things to consider.

We also need to look at what the public service broadcaster does. When we look at other jurisdictions, we see public service broadcasters do so much more than simply run television stations. They do much more in terms of using their websites and archives and in reaching out to under-served communities and promoting local culture and creativity. RTÉ is not doing anywhere near enough of this. Perhaps if it spent more time trying to do that instead of arranging curious contracts and barter accounts, it would be doing a damn sight better.

What needs to come out of the review is a renewal of the public service ethos. One of the aspects of this is the archive. I remind the Minister of the legislation I have brought before the House regarding the opening of the archive.

I made the point that RTÉ had come cap in hand to this place time and time again looking for us to support it because of its public service remit. It is important that we ask RTÉ what it is doing for that public service remit. We have seen in recent weeks that it has done nothing, or certainly very little. In fact, it is working against the public service. We must demand more of RTÉ. I offer my Bill as one way to do that, but I think in many ways we need to demand more of it. We must look at how RTÉ treats its staff and look at pay caps. All these things are essential for RTÉ to return to public service broadcasting, and to news and media that is about public benefit and not simply measured in economic costs.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was reading RTÉ's vision statement earlier. It states:

RTÉ's vision is to champion Irish culture by captivating audiences with trusted, engaging and challenging content; celebrating our country's rich diversity; and cultivating Ireland's talent.

There are a number of parts of that statement that I want to focus on that situate themselves within the context of the current crisis in which RTÉ finds itself. I will focus specifically on those relating to the notion of trust and the concept of talent. All of these issues have been dealt with in the Oireachtas committees in recent days. We have seen them in the vast and growing array of media reports which have been circulating, some of course which RTÉ itself has been reporting on.

I want to be very clear here: this is in no way an attack on the ordinary workers within RTÉ, whom we have seen are very angry because many of them have felt very badly treated in recent years. Neither are we against the idea of having a public State broadcaster. To me, that is an extremely important concept that we need. The idea of trust is very important. What we saw in a recent poll is that 70% of people felt trust could not be restored. Since I have come in here, we have seen scandal after scandal that has repeatedly caused issues for people and for the public's trust in public life. Those scandals really do have an impact on that.

Then we have the concept of talent. There is nearly a perception that only certain people are talented; that the ordinary workers in RTÉ, who put on show after show and do all the work behind the scenes and in front of the cameras; do not have that same level of talent; and that certain people should get paid huge amounts - vast sums of money - while ordinary workers who put the show on the road week in, week out get paid very little or are on very obscure and difficult contracts.

Tá easpa muiníne ag an bpobal as RTÉ mar gheall ar an méid atá tarlaithe. Feicimid an bealach ina bhfuil RTÉ ag déileáil lena gnáthfhoireann. Feicimid freisin an bealach a chaitheann sé leo siúd a labhraíonn agus a oibríonn i nGaeilge i gcomparáid leo siúd a labhraíonn agus a oibríonn i mBéarla ó thaobh pá de. Caithfear stop a chur leis seo.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This all comes down to trust. Anybody we have spoken to in recent days has told us about their absolute lack of trust in RTÉ. In fairness, most of them talk about the fact that they feel absolutely sickened by what has happened, but I could not say they are shocked. That is half the problem.

We all know the issues that have existed for a long period regarding certain of the big players in RTÉ who are paid a huge amount of money. To a degree, RTÉ put up its hands last week - it took a fair bit of arm-twisting before the hands went up – in regard to the fact that at times they are bidding against themselves. The major issue that has brought this to a head is a lie. I refer to the idea that everybody across RTÉ - the hardworking journalists and those whom Deputy Farrell says keep the show on the road - was told they had to take a 15% cut. They were told everyone else was taking the cut, including the big players. The biggest player of them all was Ryan Tubridy. Unfortunately, the reality is that it looks like the director general, with a small number of others, was able to put together a means to make a back-ways payment. I do not know any other way to call it. In fairness, it was put a hell of a lot better by Siún Ní Raghallaigh, who described it as "an act designed to deceive". There was an absolute systemic failure.

The good news is the fact that finally, after a number of years, this was brought to light. I have a particular difficulty not only that there was a means of paying someone €75,000, and a number of excuses were made to people who asked questions in regard to that, but also that it was put through a barter account, which is an absolute slush fund, at a huge cost. Renault was involved. It looks like any events that it put on also cost the taxpayer. We are talking about €47,000. If we were not dealing with Covid, we would probably be looking at an even bigger bill in relation to that. Not only was it an act designed to deceive, but it was a really expensive act designed to deceive.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is before we start looking into the ins and outs of what exactly was in that barter account. That is a phrase no one is going to forget in the near future.

I know that two reviews have been set up at this point in time, but culture, governance and the means by which business is done in RTÉ must be examined so that we deliver public sector broadcasting as it should be.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to share time with Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At the heart of this scandal in the highest echelons of RTÉ, what I find most astonishing is the absolute spectacular lack of curiosity that exists among various senior executives and departments, with the result that information was siloed and was purposely not communicated to the executive board, or rather not even requested by those who are in a position to oversee the payments. The chair of the board, Siún Ní Raghallaigh, has admitted that there is a problem with the culture in RTÉ and that the executive board was not functioning as an executive board should.

One example is that the former executive chair of the board between 2014 and 2022, Moya Doherty, did not even know of the existence of the barter account. At the Committee of Public Accounts last week, she described the revelations of the barter account as "staggering". What I also found staggering was that over the course of a year, the remuneration committee did not even meet. One of the more astonishing pieces of information, according to the interim deputy director general, Adrian Lynch, was that RTÉ underwrote the commercial deal with Renault by means of a verbal agreement with Dee Forbes. The agreement was never put in writing, which is extraordinary given there was a potential exposure for RTÉ of €75,000 per year over the course of a five-year term. Some €150,000 in payments to Ryan Tubridy were put through the barter account with anonymised invoices which stated "commercial fees". On Wednesday, the commercial director, Geraldine O'Leary, said she could not remember why it was framed that way. On Thursday, Siún Ní Raghallaigh, then described it as deception. I would describe it as fraud. Those sums matter.

If the bus that took the RTÉ clients from Drumcondra to Croke Park, which would have turned left on the North Circular Road, had turned right, it would have gone up to the Dóchas Centre, a prison where I know working-class women faced several hours or up to a day in prison for not paying the €160 licence fee. Those sums matter to people.

I also find the Minister's own lack of curiosity to be worth questioning further. Some 13 days into the affair, the chair of the RTÉ board revealed that Dee Forbes was asked to resign on day one, and admitted not telling the Minister about it during the crisis meeting that took place with her on day nine. I am also conscious that the Minister became aware that there was an issue in March. What exactly was the Minister made aware of in March? What exactly did she ask for further clarification on? We are three months down the road. I believe it is worth detailing to the Dáil exactly what she was told and what questions she did not ask at the time.

The vast majority of staff in RTÉ conduct themselves with integrity and dedicate much of their lives to public service broadcasting. This scandal is particularly harrowing for those journalists, crew members and staffers because they have been operating on the bare minimum, while being told there are no staff to bolster their efforts in different regions; there is no money for decent equipment, including chairs with a back that do not cause strain; and there are no resources for them or their team to carry out investigative journalism.

There are journalists working zero-hour contracts, trying to eke out a living in one of the most expensive cities in Europe, who are only now hearing that vast sums of money were being covertly funnelled to those at the top, who have been described as "the talent". RTÉ is a microcosm for Ireland. Those at the top continue to reap all that is sown, out of greed, while those below are denied the basic provisions to feel empowered in their work and life. Bogus self-employment contracts and unfair leave policies do not have a place in public organisations.

Those workers, who are taxpayers, have suffered most from this abomination. I express solidarity with all those workers and acknowledge their continued strength, integrity and dignity. One of the more satisfying aspects of this scandal was watching in recent weeks as those who make RTÉ what it is came to the fore together to hold the people at the top to account. There has been a complete failure to nurture ambitious young broadcasters, so fearful was RTÉ of losing what it had decided were "the talent". Now that the talent has removed itself, RTÉ is no lesser for it. I hope that experience is remembered long into the future. Public broadcasting is worth fighting for. In this Chamber and in Irish society, we need to hold those who make decisions to account. I welcome the Minister's review. I hope it will be expedited and that we hold those people to account.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The more extensive review is now necessary because of the lack of transparency from some members of RTÉ management. If there is a way to deal with a crisis, how RTÉ has handled this one is not the way to do so. The top-up payments triggered the crisis, but the cover-up, particularly in a situation where there is no obvious personal gain for most of those involved, is hard to understand. Last week we were told it was a transaction designed to deceive. The question so many of us have is "Why?".

I completely understand the anger and upset of those working in RTÉ about penny-pinching when it is contrasted with the approach, led by the commercial department, to such items as the rugby world cup in Japan, concert tickets, dinners, tickets to high profile football matches and so much more. We will obviously see much more when we see the extent of the barter account.

Part of the reason there is a need for the review to be extended is that RTÉ management has not been forthcoming with information. A deep dive from outside is now needed because of the unquestioning culture. RTÉ's senior executives cannot be honest with themselves and that tells us something about that culture. Widening the review to take in concerns raised by the unions is important. I acknowledge that. We must not have a situation where people do not feel they can disclose what they know or raise concern without fearing for the future of their careers. Nothing will change unless people feel they have the freedom in the organisation to be honest, open and transparent. That applies throughout the organisation.

Let us look at the commercial department. Geraldine O'Leary, who appeared before two committees, is the person most acquainted with the barter account. She knew the types of transactions that normally went through that account, outrageous as some of them were. She is on the record as saying she knew an invoice for €75,000 for Ryan Tubridy was unusual. She knew it related to him despite the invoice not stating that. She had the choice to say "No". She could have said that this is not what the barter account was for. Instead she did what she was told by the director general. It sounds like the universal soldier who acted on the instructions of the general. Again, I ask "Why?". She also had the option of raising this with the executive management committee as an exceptional item, but seems to have chosen not to do so and to keep it under wraps. She told the Committee of Public Accounts last week that no member of staff raised any issue with her about an invoice in 2022. I was more than surprised by her response. She was categoric. I was not at all surprised to read the following quote in the The Sunday Times:

Geraldine O'Leary, the only other executive who knew about the two invoices paid through the barter account, has said that her knowledge of the matter was limited to instructions received from Forbes. She told the PAC on Thursday that no questions were raised internally about the invoicing process until March 2023. Her recollection of events is disputed, however. The Sunday Timeshas established that O'Leary was directly made aware of questions raised internally in relation to one invoice settled through the barter account more than a year ago.

That was the one I questioned her about.

Putting incorrect information on the Dáil record about the top-up to Ryan Tubridy started some of the inquiries here. Not only was the Dáil misled, but the public was misled by extension. The last thing we need is more of this. A forensic accountant will not find that, but going through emails and other correspondence in that department would. What was known by people who came before the Oireachtas and stated they did not know about it must be established.

We need to see much greater transparency in the future. For example, we need declarations of interest, especially by contractors. Through a recent set of parliamentary questions I tabled about influencers, I discovered that some people can earn quite a lot of additional money. Doireann Garrihy was paid €20,000 for promoting the Cheltenham horse racing festival by the publicly funded Horse Racing Ireland, incredibly for promoting an event in a different jurisdiction. Eoin McGee who hosted a TV programme about his bookHow to be Good with Money- and we all want to see people being good with money - was paid €17,000 by the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. Those kinds of issues need to be put on a register so we can have full transparency. I want to see several things change. I want the Comptroller and Auditor General to audit RTÉ again in some fashion. It may well be a dual function. The culture must change. We need to dispense with the need for the agent, ensure there is a safe place in RTÉ for people to disclose information and that there is transparency right across the organisation.

Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this serious debate. It is hugely important that we, in the Oireachtas and in society, ensure there is proper public service broadcasting into the future.

I was in the US recently and there was wall-to-wall coverage on television of one or the other agenda. The corrosiveness of both sides was evident in a democracy. Public service broadcasting is a pillar of democracy and it is crucially important that the pillar society is built upon has the trust of the Oireachtas and the public in general. It has been shattered in recent weeks and we must go about rebuilding it.

Many of the contributions to today's debate have been about why, where, the invoices and so forth. However, if we take it in an overall context, RTÉ was set up over the decades and was seen as a trusted partner in Irish society. That trust has been eroded. Genuine law-abiding people are saying to me on a daily basis in the past week or ten days that they will no longer pay the television licence fee. That is worrying. The trust in it is eroded. With that trust, RTÉ developed a role over the years and became a powerful organisation with a powerful trust in society.

Earlier this year there were debates and commentary by Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas and others about GAAGO and having put our national games beyond a paywall. We should have seized that moment to say something was fundamentally wrong. It is no longer for the betterment of Irish society or of the general public. The whole development of GAAGO and putting our national games beyond the reach of ordinary citizens who already pay for their television licences showed me, already a number of weeks ago, that something was fundamentally wrong. It was never so clear that something was fundamentally wrong. We can debate about the personalities who were involved on both sides, from RTÉ and the GAAGO panel. Something was fundamentally wrong because RTÉ was set up as a broadcaster to ensure all citizens, no matter their level of income or what part of the island they lived in, had access to programmes and to their national games. That was the part of the contract. On one side was the trust of the Irish people and the delivery of services by RTÉ was on the other.

People have said to me continuously in recent days that never again will they watch. It is damaging to everybody in society that our national broadcaster has had its reputation tarnished in such a way. Debates about the stars and the money being paid to them went on for many years. There was disquiet about it but the idea that any politician should question RTÉ's role or authority, or ask whether it was right or wrong to do something, was shunned. A fear built up that people should not question RTÉ because it is too powerful or because we believed it was doing the right thing. The opposite has now been shown to be the case. How are we going to go back and ensure Irish society has a basic trust in RTÉ? That is an enormous task for the Government and the Minister. It is an issue that is completely outside the Government's making but it is now down to the Government and the Minister. I welcome the initiative and the terms and conditions of the review. However, that must be built upon. It must be shown that we are working. The only way to do that is by having proper accountability through the Committee of Public Accounts or through the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. I compliment my colleagues from the Dáil and Seanad who sit on those committees. They did extremely good work last week, in particular, and showed the benefit of Oireachtas committees in ensuring we get to the right source of information.

To put matters in a nutshell, RTÉ, as a basic public service broadcaster, is needed in Irish society. It is fundamental that we have a properly functioning public service broadcaster but not one that believes it is so powerful that it is beyond question or reproach. We have seen what that attitude has done in other institutions around the State in decades past. RTÉ must be accountable in the same way everyone in this House is accountable. If anything showed the contempt that RTÉ had for the Irish people over the last while, it was GAAGO. The national game was put beyond the reach of people in places where there is not access to broadband or anything else. People have supported the national broadcaster and games. That issue showed the contempt RTÉ has for the ordinary citizen. With the drip-feeding of information over the past week, nothing has changed my mind about that contempt. In fact, my view has been copper-fastened. We must ensure that in as short a time as possible after the review is complete, we start rebuilding. Never again can RTÉ become so powerful that it cannot be questioned by the Oireachtas or by the public in general.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I commend my party colleague, the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, for setting the terms of the review of the public service broadcaster. That is a significant and welcome step and we look forward to the outcome of the review.

The events of the past three weeks have amplified a niggling concern I have had for quite a while. Last year, I proposed that the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action would hold a series of public sessions on the role of media in climate action. I was in no doubt as to the influence of media on public acceptance of climate change. Generally, however, it has not been too bad in this country and research by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, tells us we do not have a significant climate denial movement in this country, unlike in other countries. One of the reasons for that is that the public service broadcaster has largely been good and responsible when it comes to the issue. Excellent programmes, such as "Eco Eye", have informed our people of the challenge of climate change and the solutions to it.

The niggling feeling is that with some aspects of our media's approach to climate, much is left to be desired. Too often, we see a false balance approach whereby a topic is discussed by people with opposing viewpoints but where the quality of those views is not equal. For example, in a debate on the climate, pitting an expert who has arrived at conclusions through years of research against somebody who simply disagrees or has a vested interest is not a balanced approach. Any politician in this House will know the drill involved in doing radio interviews. You get a call a few minutes beforehand, chat briefly with the producer and sound technician, and wait to be called to go live. You sit through advertisements for cars, insurance and fuel. You listen to the jingle as the show resumes and it tells you it is sponsored by a car company. You then go on to be interrogated on climate policy. To what extent is the listener influenced by the content of the interview and to what extent are they influenced by the advertising that is pushed at them relentlessly?

The Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action had some fascinating sessions with media experts at the end of last year and we also had representatives of RTÉ before us. We heard from them at the time that:

...RTÉ remains the most trusted news provider in the country. Over 92% of the Irish public use one or more of RTÉ’s services each week. With this large audience also comes a strong sense of responsibility.

Of interest to me was that the witnesses from RTÉ emphasised that advertising was solely the remit of the commercial side of the organisation and did not influence content creation or editorial decisions. Yet when asked about programme sponsorship, they answered that there was editorial representation on an internal sponsorship committee. In other words, there is not a clear delineation between the two. The events of recent weeks show a murky relationship between our public service broadcaster and some of the entities that fund it. This raises important questions of the influence of these commercial entities on the programming that is produced and on influencing public opinion.

Our world is on fire. We need to do everything we can to cut our emissions. There is no silver bullet. There is no one thing that solves this. The problem is not data centres, agriculture, transport, heating or aviation. It is all of these and more. Climate action is hard and that is why we cannot afford to have a public service broadcaster that is not doing everything it can to help bring this country on the challenging journey we must undertake. Properly engaging the public and ensuring that individuals and communities understand the significance of actions necessary for climate action, such as changes in transportation, heating, electricity generation and food production, is a critical element in addressing climate change. There is, of course, a role for the Government in designing communication strategies but second only to the Government, the media play a crucial role in climate action. Its role with respect to advertising and editorial policy in ensuring balance is achieved and that climate action is ultimately successful cannot be overstated. I sincerely hope that any decision-making regarding corporate influence through sponsorship and advertising in content and editorial is reviewed, not alone to restore confidence in our public service broadcaster but so that accurate and balanced programming is produced such that we, as a country, take the decisions that are critically necessary in this fight for our children, our grandchildren and our planet.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

RTÉ needs root-and-branch reform to end the insider culture. There has been a lot of talk about the culture in RTÉ and protecting "the talent". RTÉ board chair, Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh, has suggested binning the word "talent", and not before time. The use of the word "talent" is an insult to the ordinary workers in RTÉ. It shows the disconnect between the haves and have-nots. Issues have been raised about RTÉ in respect of bogus self-employment, the two-tier system for workers, pay disparity, the gender pay gap and the misclassification of other workers. All of these issues need to be resolved. Who defines what talent is? There are many talented people working in RTÉ, be they cleaners, security staff, journalists, set designers or the many others who are not deemed by RTÉ to be "the talent".

The National Union of Journalists has echoed the same issues for years. Its members have struggled with pay, zero-hour contracts and not getting the resources they need to do their jobs. We heard that the remote controls in the RTÉ newsroom were not working so the staff there could not turn on the television. The members of the union have been told time and again that there is no money. We have all heard the justified anger in the voices of ordinary journalists and workers at protests this week. Journalists on low pay have been locked in trade union disputes, fighting hard for fair play and conditions. They and their trade union representatives were told by RTÉ's top brass time and again that the money simply was not there. Yet at last week's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts, the existence of a slush fund of in excess of €1 million was revealed. This was just another kick in the teeth for those workers.

I lost count of how many people contacted me this week in relation to the television licence fee. I will not use the language they used because I will not use unparliamentary language-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good.

Mark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but they were very reluctant to pay their television licence. If they do not pay their television licence this year, they are liable to fines of up to €2,000 and up to two months in prison. The latest figures available to me show that court proceedings were taken against 11,000 individuals in a single year for not paying their TV licence. That should be put in the context of what we heard from the Committee of Public Accounts of deliberate attempts to conceal secret payments to Ryan Tubridy. Will there be consequences for those involved or will this be yet another example of a two-tier system for the haves and the haves-not?

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The scandal that has unfolded in RTÉ in recent weeks has left the people who fund the organisation extremely disappointed and angry. The sense of betrayal felt by the workers in RTÉ arising from this scandal must be recognised. At the ICTU conference today, an emergency motion was passed unanimously. This highlighted the serious concerns about the impact of this secret deal. The RTÉ trade unions went into negotiations with management in good faith. They were presented with verified financial statements and they now discover that vital information was withheld during the negotiations and the secret deal was not disclosed. For ordinary workers who are not paid hundreds of thousands of euro each year, this is frustrating and a betrayal. It is wrong; it is as simple as that.

Trade unions, those who engage in good faith in negotiations, should be presented with the full facts. The review into RTÉ must look at the impact that these dealings with the trade union group had on the negotiations. It must look at the impact on public service broadcasting. At its core, it must look at the vital principles RTÉ should uphold.

As a GAA member, I saw the scandal with GAAGO this year. GAA people and supporters expressed frustration at having to pay for games, especially the decision to make hurling, probably our greatest sport, pay for view because the company was trying to make money on the back of what should be proper public service broadcasting. That needs to be looked at as well.

An entire generation of Irish children watched "Bosco" and many other shows. The Minister will remember the saying, "'Knock knock, open wide, see what's on the other side", which is a real throwback to the importance of public sector broadcasting. In 2017, when these secret payments started, RTÉ senior management was considering stopping the development of children's broadcasting by the station. At the time, Bosco made a statement to The Journal, saying, "I don't trust the bosses in RTÉ". How right Bosco was.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This sentiment is echoed by many adults now. What those bosses were doing in 2017-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----was completely wrong.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It must be the first time Bosco was quoted in the Chamber.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The victims of the secret payments and the organised cover-up and deception around those payments are the ordinary licence holders who can go to jail if they do not pay their TV licence and the nearly 1,800 workers in RTÉ who did not benefit from these staggering salaries, payments or slush funds but who often exist on low or very modest pay and endured pay cuts, pay freezes, bogus self-employment, abuse of fixed-term contracts and lack of resources and equipment to do their job. They deserve accountability and radical reform to address the rotten culture that produced this scandal.

Last week, at a committee of which I am not a member but which I attended, in the four hours before I spoke not a single person called out the use of the word "talent" by members of the RTÉ executive until I asked how they could use that obnoxious term to distinguish between a small group at the top paid staggering salaries and the vast majority of the workforce. The next day, Siún Ní Raghallaigh had to come in, apologise and say she was binning that term. I called that out because the use of that term was indicative of the problem deep in the heart of the culture of RTÉ. There is the talent at the top and everybody else is not talent. That was the implication and that then goes on to justify one law for a small group at the top with staggering salaries, secret payments, slush funds and everybody else tightening their belts and enduring rubbish contracts, no contracts, pay freezes and pay cuts.

The other point I was the first to put at that committee was that this was an organised, orchestrated deception of the public, the Oireachtas and the workers. Again, Siún Ní Raghallaigh had to come in the next day and use exactly the terms that I had put to her and acknowledge that was the case. If there was an organised deception, somebody organised it. That is self-evident and we need to know who. We still do not know who. Fingers were pointed in certain directions but some of the people at whom those fingers were pointed have still not come before Oireachtas committees. They need to come and give their side of the story. Maybe we will learn more and maybe it will look different but those people have to come into the Oireachtas committee. We do not need to wait for reviews, audits or anything else for that to happen. Members of the public are furious and deserve to know. The workers also deserve to know. That has to happen as a matter of urgency.

We need then to investigate the corrosive impact of commercial interests and outside interests on the culture in RTÉ and how those interests could impact on the vitally important question of public service broadcasting. I want to make a point absolutely clear, as I did last week. If we do not have public service broadcasting there to serve the public, the broadcasting we will get is the broadcasting of Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk and big corporate for-profit entities. Those are the only two choices. Either we have publicly funded, public service broadcasting or we have Rupert Murdoch, Musk and all the rest of them. I know what I want. I want to at least have the choice of having public service broadcasting. The condition is that it is funded properly, as it needs to be, and not by commercial interests or a regressive tax, where one can go to jail, but through fair and progressive taxation. Let us start to tax some of these social media companies, digital streaming companies and so on, which are making a fortune and, in many cases, not even paying for their access to the Irish market in terms of what they pay.

We need to look at some other issues now that certain things have become apparent. I want these included in the Minister's audit and review. The independent production fund needs to be looked at. I have been trying to raise this for years. There will be a debate on Thursday, one I will be interested to hear, on a report that I asked the committee of which I am a member to do on section 481 film expenditure. This spending of €100 million is supplemented by €40 million from the independent production fund at RTÉ and €20 million from Screen Ireland, all of which goes to the independent production sector. I am in favour of that money, and more, going into independent film production but there have to be conditions attached to ensure that what we have just witnessed at the top of RTÉ is not also going on in the independent production sector, and we have very strong allegations that it is. We are told by the representatives of the actors and performers, both within RTÉ and in terms of the public money used to fund the independent production sector, that actors, performers and writers are being robbed of their royalties and that the copyright directive, under which they are entitled by law to those royalties, is being flouted systematically by the producers who get money from RTÉ, section 481 and Screen Ireland.

That needs to be investigated. How much is being paid in producer fees to the companies that are getting money from that fund? I was told today by somebody who I asked that some of them are getting €5,000 a week and the production companies are getting a slice off the top as well. We need to find out whether that is true because, on the other side of that, we have film crew who are on fixed-term contracts but, at the end of a production, it is as if they have never worked in the film industry. The clock goes back to zero. They say that systematic abuse of the legislation on fixed-term workers is happening in the Irish film industry using money from RTÉ.

I have also heard people say today that they go to RTÉ with ideas for productions. They are told they are not getting the money but, a little while later, a favoured few do exactly the same thing they suggested to RTÉ. They do not get the funding for it; those who are the favoured few do. Are there conflicts of interest between those at the top of RTÉ who say "Yes" or "No" to independent film production and some of those independent film production companies? We need to know that as well as part of this review and audit.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The State will have a hard job collecting the television licence fee in 2023. People are asking where the money goes to. They have seen €345,000 in secret payments for Ryan Tubridy, and nearly €250,000 going on Irish Rugby Football Union, IRFU, Rugby World Cup tickets for corporate clients and so on. In the best of times, the television licence was always a regressive tax in that the rich man or woman pays as much as the poor man or woman. No grounds of inability to pay are considered, for example, and in the best years a campaign of coercion was needed to get television licence money from many people. It is not unusual for 10,000 people in a year to be dragged in front of the courts for non-payment. It is not unknown for more than 400 people in a year to be jailed for non-payment. I do not think any of that will prevent a high level of non-payment in 2023.

In the past weeks, we have seen not one but two RTÉs. We have seen the RTÉ of stars, agents and RTÉ top management. We have also seen the RTÉ of ordinary workers who took pay cuts, had poor contracts, and suffered under a regime of bogus self-employment. They were also the victims. We have seen another voice come from among those workers, which is typified by people such as a former worker, Ciaran Mullooly, and Emma O'Kelly, who stand in the best public service broadcasting traditions and, in many cases, are the voice of trade union activists. It is activists and workers such as these, including the general public, documentary makers and artists, who need to be brought to the heart of decision-making within RTÉ. We need a clear-out of the managers involved in the old regime, an end to the star system with the capping of salaries, abolition of the licence fee, and 100% publicly funded public service broadcasting to be funded from steeply progressive taxation, which should include a tax on the profits and advertising revenues of the social media giants.

On the situation in Cork, it has been said by RTÉ that the suitability of studios there is being assessed. It is possible the studios will be sold and elsewhere will be rented. That is a backward step that will be resisted. When Newstalk closed its Cork studios, it was virtually the end, certainly for the vast majority, of live interviews from the city. The Cork studios broadcast the "Today" show, the "Nationwide" slot, "The John Creedon Show" and so on. Those studios absolutely must be kept.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What has transpired over the past number of weeks has been deeply disturbing. It has done enormous damage to the reputation of our national broadcaster. I do not very often agree with some of the points made by Deputy Boyd Barrett but he was correct in much of what he said about the outstanding questions that still need to be answered, in addition to the importance of having a national broadcaster that is in every way impartial when it comes to the broadcast of political views. What is so special about the product RTÉ has offered through its current affairs department is that every voice in the House should get representation. Whether it is the left, the centre or the right, there should be a mechanism for those views to be broadcast in a democratic way. I want to avoid at all costs, and this point was made by Deputy Boyd Barrett, having conglomerates going in to purchase every media outlet. That has happened in the private sector, which is why it is important to protect RTÉ as an entity. It is to everybody's benefit who is in some way stable in their political view. I am somebody who regards myself as an individual of the centre. I do not look down upon those who have different political views from me but, in an open democracy where there is freedom of speech, it is important to have a system in place where everybody's views are heard. That is absolutely important.

The damage done by the RTÉ executive board's decision-making, in cahoots with the likes of Noel Kelly and others who were involved in negotiating these very lucrative contracts, has been despicable. If I were to use one word following last week's proceedings of the Committee of Public Accounts, it would not be "anger" but "upset" at seeing careers being destroyed by the contents of that meeting, and the reputation of some of our most well-known broadcasters in the State being tarnished, unfortunately. It was not pleasant and the sad truth is that a lot more is to come. A number of people have approached me - it is not appropriate for me to go into it now - with information that would make your jaw drop. Above all else, disrespect was shown to the Government and the Minister in respect of the gap in timing between a decision to sack the director general of RTÉ and informing the Minister of that decision. That absolutely beggars belief.

I see and have often commented on the disrespect shown by certain civil servants within certain elements of the State, whether through semi-State bodies or other organisations, and the utter disregard they have for the people elected to the House. People are not always content with what their politicians say and do, but we are ultimately accountable to them. We are their representatives in these types of situations. Those who decided not to attend the Oireachtas committees should be ashamed of themselves. Each person is entitled to their own view. I am not referring to Dee Forbes in that regard. I wish her well in her recovery. I hope she will be in a position to come before the Committee of Public Accounts and the media committee. It has to be done.

I will also refer to the situation around potential external Government-appointed auditors being approved and worked on by the Cabinet. It would be highly damaging if that were used as an instrument to close down the debate. The committees of both Houses have work to do in getting to the bottom of the outstanding questions. It is in the best interests of RTÉ to get to a point of zero and rebuild from there rather than allowing a review process to come in and shut it down. We saw that last week with the Irish Horse Racing Regulatory Board. A big bubble was put out there. Nobody has a notion of what is going on in that organisation and, effectively, we are left with pie in the sky and being able to assume anything we bloody want, no matter how dire the situation is. We have no idea what is going on. We cannot allow that to happen with RTÉ because of the entity it is, from a reputational point of view, and the standard it needs to set. That has to be said.

I will refer to another important matter. What came out as regards expenses in RTÉ was sickening. Some €275,000 was spent on junkets. It can be imagined what would happen if Members did that. The place would be burned down but RTÉ could get away with it. It came down to an attitude and entitlement that the senior executives in RTÉ could do whatever they wanted because it was not their money. However, it was the public's money. It was public money that was squandered on junkets. There is no justification for sending the commercial director - we do not yet know who else was with her but we will find out - all the way to Japan to watch a rugby match. More than €17,000 per person was spent on that. If anyone in the House did that, we would be lynched and rightly so - I will be clear that I mean that metaphorically. That was the bottom of the barrel. I will not even go into the rest of it in respect of the IRFU and so on and so forth. If it was IDA Ireland that was working on bringing in international companies and other agencies involved in foreign direct investment, where there was actual justification for the use of that money for that type of work, fair enough, but RTÉ did not have anything in that regard. On this old nonsense about client entertainment, the platform that is RTÉ is so because of the people who want to engage with it.

The advertisers, as a matter of fact, should have been coming to the RTÉ executive board and not the other way around. I do not buy that. There is no basis for that argument. That point has to be put across as well. There was no barter account. If anything, it was a banter account that was used for fun and entertainment from the public's purse. Ultimately, that is wrong.

The disrespect that was shown to the staff within the organisation, the full-time employees of RTÉ, was staggering. Mr. Robert Shortt's presentation to the Committee of Public Accounts was telling in regard to how little awareness there was of this culture, which I described as a Celtic tiger-esque or Las Vegas-style culture, that a certain privileged few in the RTÉ organisation enjoyed. I must call out how little they thought of their own people. I thought an awful lot of the presenters, despite their very high earnings. I am not knocking them. They are talented people who have a job to do in the organisation. That is my personal opinion and view and one I am not trying to force on anyone. Those presenters who came forward to clarify what their pay is made a clever and brave move when it comes to the trustworthiness of the organisation. That has to be commended as well.

The previous chief financial officer and those who have been involved in commercial deals in the past would all be better off, in the interests of RTÉ and the employees in the organisation, coming before the media committee and Committee of Public Accounts and answering the questions. Otherwise, we will drag this out so that it rolls on for years and causes huge pain.

Deputy Barry made a point about the TV licence. The number of people who have approached me and said they have no intention of paying the licence is hugely concerning. Ultimately, the Exchequer will have to fill in the gap, which means the public will pay. That is the sad truth of what these gangsters have caused by their actions. I was sickened when I left the committee meeting the other day. It was much worse than anything I had anticipated to have to listen to. There is anger at a grassroots level. By "grassroots level", I mean the researchers, runners and everybody else involved in RTÉ. During the week, a number of cameramen out on the beat pulled me aside in Cork and Dublin and shared stories of dismay and disappointment with me. I was having dinner with my family in Dublin last week. They were up here. I was pulled aside in the restaurant by family members who have family working in RTÉ. They shared their worry about the future of the organisation. This all comes back to the greed at the centre. That message has to be put across.

My last point, which I do not often share, is that I have a big interest in the arts and I love music. I play music and have had a lifelong interest in it. I have a message for RTÉ and the Government. There is information in the media about RTÉ selling its silverware, whether that is 2FM or Lyric FM, which I understand is a profitable radio station. I beg the Government not to rush down that particular road because there are entities in RTÉ in which fantastic people are working. They deserve the support of the House and the Government when it comes to promoting the arts, which is a slogan or phrase that RTÉ often uses. They cannot be the ones to suffer as a consequence of all of this wrongdoing.

In summary, the more information that comes out, the faster it comes out and the greater the transparency in relation to what has happened in RTÉ, the faster will be the process of rebuilding the trust of the public. As I said in relation to independent auditors or whatever steps the Government may take, I would caution the Minister in that regard. Compellability and the instruments available to the committees are the route that must be pursued. It is in the public interest to do so. All we are trying to do is identify what the public wants to know. We are not guilty in any regard for that. That is all I have to say.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like most people, I have watched the RTÉ crisis with dismay and disappointment. Unlike most people, I had a sneak preview of how the public duty of the national broadcaster was at complete odds with its commercial devotion to its advertisers and sponsors. At a meeting of the Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action last December, RTÉ did not seem to be able to join the dots on how it was covering the climate crisis, on the one hand, while accepting sponsorship and advertisements from car manufacturers, including manufacturers of SUVs and other polluters that are causing the crisis, in its commercial life. For RTÉ, these were separate worlds.

The organisation is leading a double life. In one life, RTÉ can arrive at the Oireachtas pleading poverty, while in another life it pampers a presenter and gives in to his agent. In so doing, it was risking the past, present and future of the national broadcaster for demands for "more". The "more" that is needed from RTÉ, what is missing from the organisation, is more accountability, more responsible communication, more interrogation of positions, more caution with public money, more responsibility for that money and more preparedness in its public relations plan and crisis management. I would also like more State sponsorship and support being given to local radio stations, such as Kfm in Kildare. There is life outside Dublin. Earlier, I heard Deputy Munster speaking about how RTÉ wined and dined 70 people, including some RTÉ staff, in the K Club with golf, drinks and goodie bags. I saw an example of true public service broadcasting while I was on air on Kfm. The station rejected the attempted interference of a nursing home advertiser in the coverage of a HIQA report I had been interrogating on air. This was a far cry from the RTÉ executives who were before the climate committee last December.

There should be much more for the actual talent in RTÉ, including, as highlighted by Emma O'Kelly, the women on maternity leave in the station who were not paid, the people left hanging with precarious work and zero-hours contracts, never mind the bogus self-employment, while stars are cajoled, minded, buffed and babied. There is more to come, and I am glad the Government has taken Deputy Doherty's advice and is sending in forensic accountants. For now, RTÉ must really think about public duty and not stars, agents or commercials. There must be no more double life; the public service must come first.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ordinary workers and journalists at RTÉ, as well as the fee-paying public, all feel utterly betrayed when they hear of the slush funds and barter accounts in the golden circles at RTÉ. One of the main issues here is trust, a quality that features prominently on the RTÉ website. Trust has been lost and will be very difficult to regain. There must be serious changes going forward.

The top earners in RTÉ are paid too much in the first place. The argument that they must be paid obscene amounts to keep them in RTÉ has gone out the window. If they feel they can get these sums anywhere else, they should be told where the door is and asked to try to find it someplace else.

When cuts and savings are being made to secure finance going forward, it must not be the regular workers in RTÉ who bear the brunt of these changes in wage cuts and job losses. As the largest broadcaster in the country, RTÉ can outbid any competition. The sheer levels of pay it agreed speaks of how it was essentially bidding against itself.

It has become obvious from what we have seen so far that the sense of value for public money has been completely lost at the higher levels in RTÉ. Underwriting a commercial pay deal with a sponsor so that their highest paid presenter could have more money secretly funnelled to him while hoodwinking the public who are on the hook is an unforgivable example of this. No longer can we accept half-answers and hand-wringing about these issues. We need to know precisely who on the board and elsewhere was aware of secret payments and the misuse of funds. Denying any knowledge at this stage is not good enough. If there were gaps in knowledge on the part of highly paid officers at RTÉ, we need to know why and we must question whether they are doing their jobs properly.

RTÉ needs a root-and-branch reform of its insider culture and the people responsible must be held to account. Serious allegations have been made against Dee Forbes, especially concerning the claim that €75,000 in invoices were labelled as consultancy fees. The fact that the chief financial officer did not question this claim regarding consultancy services cannot be excused either. Also, Noel Kelly's influence in RTÉ must be examined, as must the issue of influence generally. This is a grey area that has emerged and light needs to be shed on it.

We must remember that RTÉ does not have a monopoly on the public service. What about our local radio stations, which, in large part, are the go-to broadcasters in our communities? Like the regular workers in RTÉ, their contributions are overlooked while some RTÉ presenters are being paid as though they have more value than the stations. RTÉ is at a turning point and a root-and-branch reform to the insider culture is needed. People need to be held to account and Dee Forbes must come before the Committee of Public Accounts to give clarity to the matter. We need to get to the nuts and bolts of how the board of directors could remain in place while all of this was going on. Ignorance can no longer be used as an excuse to evade transparency and accountability.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sharing time with Deputy Shanahan. The last two weeks have been catastrophic, not only for RTÉ but for its staff and the public seeing the demise of our independent public broadcaster. We heard of a scheme designed to cover up payments to the presenter Ryan Tubridy, that if revealed, would contradict the fact that he was supposed to have taken an 11% pay cut. Thereafter the existing chair of the board proclaimed that it was a scheme designed to deceive. Ryan Tubridy may well have been a symptom of the problem but he was by no means the cause of what seems to have spread like a cancer throughout the organisation. The revelations escalated to the barter account spending, facilitating junkets over the years for staff and clients to the tune of hundreds of thousands of euro, all while RTÉ's former director general, Dee Forbes, protested that the TV licence fee had to increase as RTÉ's survival depended on it. The board of RTÉ has scapegoated the obvious and has absolved itself of any real responsibility. The board's lack of knowledge and of interaction with the executive board would call into question the rationale for having a board in the first place, in circumstances where it appeared to have known nothing about it.

The damage caused is massive. Staff were lied to and are feeling let down and morale is on the floor. The public no longer has confidence and en massethey say they will not pay their TV licences. It is even in doubt if the commercial sponsors will stay or go. Clearly the national broadcaster is in financial peril. In any functioning democracy an independent media broadcaster forms an essential part of the checks and balances in that democracy. We have seen the rise of the alt right across Europe. Concurrently, we have seen fundamental change in the use of media platforms, which underpins this change. Media moguls control large parts of the national narratives in many democracies. There has been a dangerous evolution over the last 30 years. Billionaires like Elon Musk and Rupert Murdoch have the ability to control a lot of the global narrative and we cannot allow this to happen in Ireland. At a time when independent media is crucial to a functioning democracy, we have arrived at this dangerous intersection. We must put in place checks and balances that work for the public good; otherwise we will not see the likes of "Prime Time Investigates", and other journalistic probing, to ensure transparency and accountability. Priority funding for these types of programmes must be provided.

Where do we go from here? It is simple; we are where we are and we cannot go back forever but unless we take the right steps forward, nothing will change. To restore confidence across the board, for the staff and the people we serve in the world at large who are watching and waiting, there must be root and branch reform and a clean sweep. The existing board and the executive board must be replaced in order to give any credence to the notion of accountability and transparency. The die is cast and sympathies aside, the board must go. Our democracy is more important.

If we are to fund RTÉ the public must have confidence in it and the management and board must be independent. They must also be capable of challenging the establishment. To achieve this the State will have to fund it and in that regard this Government should consider setting up a cross-party committee, chaired by the President of the Supreme Court. This committee must not have a Government majority. The committee should deal with the funding of RTÉ and prove annually what the funding requirements of RTÉ are. This would ensure that the State broadcaster could not be beholden to the Government of the day.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It must be a long time since the governance of a public body has been called into question for such a period of time and that so many questions have come to be asked and have yet to be answered. One of the main questions I have is what drove the derogation of trust and the need to conceal the spending of public moneys. Why did RTÉ management deceive the public and the Oireachtas for five years in a row regarding the public salary of one of its best-paid employees? I also want to ask the Minister why the Grant Thornton report has not yet been published. Will the Minister give a commitment to publish it in full? Will Government also give a commitment to publish the two further reviews that it has announced today, including any reports emanating from the work of the proposed forensic accountant to be appointed?

There are many questions on the current pay structures in RTÉ and I understand that RTÉ managers have a powerful management association made up of more than 300 personnel in RTÉ. This helps this grouping to negotiate and conclude pay deals for their grade structures. What efforts will the Government be making to look into these dealings in the overall reviews it has announced? This debacle has been framed as a result of the culture of a small group within the leadership who decided to act in breach of corporate fiduciary governance in a deliberate attempt to deceive. To what purpose? I want to remind the Minister of the Latin phrase "Cui bono". Who benefits? Was the purpose solely to retain the services of Ryan Tubridy or could it also have been about concealing the spending of State moneys to provide freebies, junkets and entitlements to cosseted staff? Was there an entitlement culture within the senior leadership in RTÉ? Perhaps there was also an accommodative financial oversight perspective that was happy not to look too deeply or intently.

I will begin with the talent question. How do we estimate the talent and the value of talent in RTÉ and who should decide how much senior talented people are to be paid and how much cost should be attributed to that? We know who it appears the final decision-maker was in the last round of negotiations, or so we are told but we have not heard from that person as yet. Is it only the people who contribute and cut their teeth in children's entertainment on RTÉ that can somehow come to prominence later on in adult programming? Is it all those who are on "Bosco" and "The Den" who have a free path into the higher echelons of RTÉ presentation? What are all of our students who are studying media and communication doing? Are they wasting their time looking for senior positions in this academy if they do not come through the RTÉ school?

We need to benchmark ourselves against and the best in the business but not at the highest cost in the business. I point the Minister to the fragmentation that is taking place in media, television and digital streaming services. With respect to Mr. Tubridy or Noel Kelly's negotiations with the chair of RTÉ, why did she not look to the UK and the loss of Angus Deayton to one of the flagship BBC programmes, "Have I Got News for You"? When Deayton had to leave the producers took the decision to offer host spots every week to celebrity people to come in and underpin that show, and that strategy continues to this day. Did such an idea not cross the mind of the director general when being pressed to provide additional moneys to retain the services of Mr. Tubridy? Is it only in the private sector where companies make strategic financial decisions based on cost and value metrics?

RTÉ has had a mission promulgated on the dedication to truth, yet it is only those with money who can afford to advertise with RTÉ. How are their narratives in advertising and promotion balanced against the public interest? RTÉ radio and television have recently been to the vanguard of criticising agricultural sector emissions and promoting activity cuts in that sector. Is this stance purely based on science or could it have much to do with NGO advertisers and those promoting alternative foods seeking a reduction in the availability of Irish-grown meat and milk that delivered this attitude? Given the new climate sensitivity, did RTÉ not agonise in recent weeks over its appointment of Patrick Kielty, understanding the significant carbon emissions he would be contributing to in commuting in and out of Ireland by air every week? Are aviation emissions different to bovine emissions in the eyes of RTÉ when seen in the light of RTÉ advertising revenue coming from air travel as opposed to coming from the agricultural sector? The Minister's review also needs to question the degree to which public attitudes as conveyed by RTÉ are influenced by the advertising revenues they receive. In terms of supporting RTÉ's commercial activity, this is a serious question that needs to be asked in the public interest. We cannot have a public organisation which is dependent on a commercial footing from private sector operators that may be changing the attitudes of the public at large purely by the advertising revenue that is being generated.

I welcome the reviews the Minister has announced and the benefits of a forensic accountant looking at the wider financial activities in RTÉ.

However, we need an interim report as quickly as possible to ensure that what needs addressing is actually being acted upon.

Finally, we must look at the question of who is to blame. I am not sure it is right to blame Noel Kelly or Ryan Tubridy, because it does not appear that any law has actually been broken. That point must be made. Maybe that is also true in the case of Dee Forbes. What is plain to see is that we have a semi-State organisation that had, and maybe still has, a distant and opaque management and communications style. What the reviews will show is that the people within that organisation decided to play fast and loose with public moneys for their own benefit and that of their own careers. Ultimately, I believe that is what the review will find. Then the question will be what this House will demand in the future in terms of introducing safeguards to prevent a future reoccurrence.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not sure I will be able to add anything new to the debate. It has gone on for so long now and I understand more might come out in the wash but I still feel I have to put on the public record my disappointment over what has gone on in the past few weeks and my disdain for some of the practices that have allegedly occurred. Over the last few weeks, it has been demonstrated that a culture of excess was prevalent in RTÉ and was clear for all to see. Salaries had got out of control and money has been misspent. It has culminated in an undermining and, some would argue, collapse of public confidence in RTÉ, our national broadcaster.

I welcome the Minister's move to establish two parallel reviews, a review of governance and culture and a review of contractor fees, HR and other matters. I believe the Minister has no other recourse. She had to act because among all of the excess and lavishness, the public interest has to be served if we are to salvage any credibility in this organisation. Given the importance of public service broadcasting, it behoves us to make sure that the reviews are concise and critical but delivered in a manner where no questions remain unresolved and in an expeditious timeframe if possible. I note the Minister has reiterated that all members of the board, senior executive team and senior management are to fully engage with the review. This expectation should extend this to former staff, where applicable.

The question I am most concerned about is that of the future funding model, as referenced by Deputy Bruton. I understand the need for a pause until we fully discern what exactly transpired, and the extent of what went on. Nonetheless, the future funding of the broadcaster and expectation from the public to get clarity on what is expected of them must be addressed, for RTÉ and public representatives, in particular, to be able to stand over it. There is a growing resentment out there about the non-payment of the licence fee. As many other speaker have referenced, we have been getting a lot of messages in the last couple of weeks about people's intention not to comply with paying the licence fee. The reviews instigated by the Minister will have to clarify the concerns people have in relation to compliance with paying the licence fee.

There are one or two other issues I would like to raise that have been a source of commentary in local media in Cork. Reference was made, in particular, to the potential for the Cork studio to be sold off and another premises rented. I hope that when all that has transpired over the past number of years comes out in the wash, we do not look at the easy low-hanging fruit, like getting rid of our local or regional studios. If anything, they highlight the best of what has gone on in RTÉ over the last few decades. It would be a shame if we lost the Galway, Limerick or Cork studios in the near future.

I highlight the other subsidiaries of RTÉ, including TG4, and the excellent value for service that they bring to the table. They have consistently delivered excellent programming. Much of the talent that we have spoken about over the last few weeks has come from the corners of TG4. I hope that in time, when this debacle is put to bed and everything is dealt with, the likes of TG4 and other organisations will actually be strengthened by what has gone on in recent weeks.

My last point is on salaries. In recent weeks, many Deputies and Senators have referred to the potential for capping or linking salaries to some kind of index or comparative field. I understand that as public representatives, our salaries are linked to a certain cohort in the Civil Service. That is something we should perhaps look at into the future when it comes to discussing salaries and so on. Those are just a few thoughts I had on it.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On 20 April, I asked the Minister's Department to provide me with details on all consultant contracts of public bodies, and that included RTÉ. Unlike other Departments, however, because I have been putting these questions to everybody, the Department refused to provide that information as it did not see it as the Minister's responsibility to have that level of oversight. That is a mistake. We need to look at not having that level of oversight and at how we bring that accountability to the House.

RTÉ receives most of its funding from the State. It is unacceptable that the Comptroller and Auditor General has not been auditing the accounts. There are universities in the State that rely less on State funding and are just as autonomous but are still audited every year by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Private consulting firms have proven time and again that they are simply unreliable and not up to the task of protecting public money in the way we need it to be protected. It is hugely concerning that a slush fund and secret payments could go under the radar at an organisation the size and importance of RTÉ. We need a root and branch review of how public bodies are governed beyond just RTÉ. There are hundreds of commercial and non-commercial State bodies covered by a large body of legislation, and what ties them all together and provides overarching governance is the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies.

The stated aim of the code of practice is to ensure State bodies meet the highest standards of corporate governance. This clearly has not been the case, however. A culture of secrecy and unaccountability appears to prevail. The Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies requires all organisations, commercial and non-commercial, to report the aggregate pay bill. We still need clarity from the Minister on whether the €345,000 in secret payments was included in the overall pay bill outlined in the reported financial statements, as stipulated by the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies. Those financial reports that bodies are obliged to provide are really important. If those payments are not included under pay in the financial statement, it raises serious concerns in this House.

Denise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The last number of weeks have seen public trust in the national broadcaster reach an all-time low with the news of top-up payments, slush funds and junkets to football matches and rugby tournaments coming as a shock to many. Appearances before the Committee of Public Accounts and Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media fell far short of what would be expected of a public body in receipt of huge amounts of public money. The key point for most is that we are now looking at an organisation that is in serious need of reform.

Last week's committee appearances showed us an organisation that has been run with a real lack of oversight and transparency for a number of years. I welcome the Minister announcing the two separate reviews into RTÉ today. I also welcome the Minister deciding to exercise her powers under the Broadcasting Act to appoint a forensic accountant to examine RTÉ accounts for previous years. We know enough by now to know that is absolutely warranted.

I feel for the staff in RTÉ. They are on modest wages and have had their pay cut in recent years. The last couple of weeks have surely come as a slap to the face and they have every right to be angry. It seems public money was thrown about on a whim by executives, while staff were expected to take a hit in the name of cost-cutting measures. The culture that has existed for the last number of years must be dismantled if there is any hope of RTÉ gaining back the confidence of the public. A rebrand may perhaps be needed down the line. Either way, the days of obscene salaries and slush funds need to be well and truly over.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On this charade of scoping reviews and probes, external reviews and senior forensic accountants, some of these same accountants were involved and advised us that the banking system was in pristine condition hours before the banks collapsed. I have no faith whatsoever in this charade. What we should be talking about are the evictions, the horror of homelessness and all the other savage attacks on our people.

RTÉ set the tone for presidential elections. It chose what candidates were elected and what questions were asked of them. It interfered in referendums. It was not independent. It is scandalous. Then, it rolled out these sideshows every night with other ex-RTÉ people. Some of the new NGOs and woke people want to change us all and tell us we are all backward people. We must be forward-thinking. They tell us lies and play all their charades. What people should be talking about is the explosive paper that was published last week that said our most vulnerable young people are being raped and sexually exploited by gangs of predatory men and it is happening while they are in the care of Tusla, the State agency charged with keeping our children safe. It is a shocking indictment. On the same day everyone was agog at the RTÉ saga, far more disturbing revelations were being made in a scoping report called Protecting Against Predators: A Scoping Study on the Sexual Exploitation of Children and Young People in Ireland - my God, there are different types of predators everywhere - that outlined what is happening to children, which is what these girls are, at the hands of sick, evil perverts of men and predatory males. Vulnerable children in care in Ireland are clearly being targeted for sexual exploitation and abuse by gangs of predatory men, as that new report from University College Dublin, UCD, has revealed, and it barely gets a mention. We are here merrily dancing around - he stepped out, I stepped in again, Lanigan's Ball, Finnegan's Ball. To hell with the ball, the ball is over. They have dropped the ball. They embraced every kind of thing that went against ordinary families who are struggling to pay licences and keep themselves in jobs. It is a charade.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tá áthas orm an deis a fháil labhairt ar na ráitis a bhaineann le RTÉ. Tá sé an-soiléir gur scannal ollmhór é seo, agus tá sé soiléir chomh maith go bhfuil muinín na ndaoine ar fud an oileáin seo briste.

Yesterday, I wrote to the Corporate Enforcement Authority, CEA, requesting it to clarify whether the authority possessed sufficient statutory powers to investigate breaches of company law at RTÉ. I have received the response, and I want to thank the CEO of the CEA, Mr. Ian Drennan, for his prompt and comprehensive reply, which informed me that as RTÉ's requirement to submit financial statements is grounded in the Broadcasting Authority Act 1960 rather than the Companies Act 2014, the CEA is limited in what it can do.

There is an urgent need to have that particular situation addressed through amending legislation, if necessary, which is something I will also be pursuing further. We can describe what is happening in RTÉ as creative accounting but there is another more appropriate phrase that more accurately reflects the white-collar manipulation of accounting procedures. This is an appalling mess compounded by the sheer arrogance and detachment of the board and senior management. We need a clear-out, and we need to make the licence fee optional.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need a public service broadcaster. When all is said and done, whatever is going to become of it, we absolutely need that.

What I want to remember today, though, is the absolute obscenity of this fact. I am not going to name anyone, a Cheann Comhairle, because that is not the right thing to do. When people are not here to defend themselves, they should not be named. I will give an example, however. When one presenter on a radio programme on RTÉ is able to earn more money than the Taoiseach and Tánaiste put together, there is something radically wrong. That a person can go on the radio every day and tell the rest of us how wrong we all are and how right he is about everything and get paid more than the Taoiseach and Tánaiste to do so, and say he is defending the ordinary man and Mr. Joe Public, is absolute nonsense.

It cannot be tolerated any longer and I want to highlight that.

I will highlight an anomaly. I come from County Kerry. The most important thing we have in Kerry is Radio Kerry. I want to talk about a very dear friend of all of ours, the late Senator Paul Coghlan. I remember him very fondly here this evening. I know we will do it properly some other time. He had the foresight, with his business acumen, to be one of the founding fathers of Radio Kerry. Even though we do not always agree, like every local radio station, I want to thank people like Jerry O'Sullivan for the morning programme, Deirdre Walsh, Andrew and Elaine, and the great Dermot Moriarty who I had playing "Sounds Country" in my office before I came here. If he keeps going any longer, he will hit his golden jubilee, because he has been with Radio Kerry for over 30 years.

I want to think of those people and the service they provide. What are they paid? They are not subsidised. They have to try to manage themselves in the best way they can. They are up against it all the time. I want to say to Fiona Stack, the general manager, that I as a public representative from Kerry deeply appreciate Radio Kerry, whether it is the deaths that come on, the good news or the bad news. There are people who time their day around Radio Kerry in their homes, on their farms and in their machines, or whatever else they are doing. This waste has to stop.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I too thank Radio Kerry. I will not list all the names but I know each and every one of them and thank them from the bottom of my heart for what they are doing for the people of Kerry and indeed the people of west Cork and the surrounding areas. However, we are here to talk about RTÉ. We are talking about taxpayers' money and the licence fee that people pay. I am questioning what they are getting in return for that licence fee. What we see is a rollover of programmes going back 30 or 40 years, apart from TG4, which makes a good attempt and has to be applauded.

Dee Forbes was vilified from the start. We are supposed to believe that she wrote the contract for all the stars, that she did the legal work and that she did the auditing and all that. I do not believe that. I am asking Dee Forbes to come in here when she is able and give her account, because there are two sides to every story and in many cases, there are three or four sides.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And the truth.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are expected to believe that the Minister met Siún Ní Raghallaigh on Saturday week last and that she never told the Minister she had asked for the resignation of Dee Forbes. I find it hard to believe because it was under the Minister's watch that Ms Ní Raghallaigh was appointed, last November. We are asked to believe this. Workers who do the nitty gritty work had to take cuts. To put it all in context, people trying to stay in their homes for the last hours and days of their lives are only getting 20 minutes of home help.

Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the RTÉ scandal gets deeper and darker, one aspect becomes clear, which is that RTÉ is a financial basket case that has been poorly operated and controlled from a corporate governance perspective. The organisation's top brass seems to have a cavalier outlook on providing anyone, including the Oireachtas, with the truth, yet the truth is what we seek. After all, for the period from 2020 to April 2022 alone, total TV licence and Exchequer revenue provided by taxpayers to RTÉ amounted to €456.8 million, with the organisation's financial accounts showing that over 60% of RTÉ's income now comes from the taxpayer. This year, RTÉ will receive €200 million from the taxpayer, yet we are in the dark as to whether this organisation uses this money in a transparent and accountable manner.

The flamboyant way in which RTÉ is able to blow taxpayers' money is very like the dishonest way it treated a landowner in Rosscarbery in west Cork. He allowed RTÉ to have a mast on his own, registered ground to provide a service to the people of Rosscarbery and its surrounds, since they had no service. When the landowner saw that RTÉ then set up its masts and added a Vodafone mast for its own profit, he inquired about why RTÉ did not ask the farmer, the real landowner, for his consent. RTÉ bullied this landowner and went for squatter's rights. With the might of the taxpayers' money, RTÉ took on the real landowner, who just wanted to talk and work out a solution. This is another scandal where heads should roll. Money is pegged to the wealthy with a nod and a wink and the landowner on the ground, who provides a service to his large community, is screwed. When RTÉ is having its post mortem, I hope it is from top to bottom. As people countrywide know, many politicians who call into RTÉ's top programmes are nod and wink politicians, while others who have honest questions are squeezed out.

The lack of honesty, transparency and co-operation displayed by RTÉ executives during the committee hearings suggests the involvement of the fraud squad is necessary to uncover the truth. Compliance with the code of practice on the governance of State bodies and other relevant laws and Acts is essential for RTÉ. Failure to adhere to these standards raises serious concerns.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This had and still has all the ingredients of a good scandal. There are public personas, a public fall from grace, and some messy payments being made, which would be a generous description of how these transactions were conducted. It has dragged out over the course of weeks as we get the continual drip-feed of information. It has been messy and, at times, acrimonious and difficult for people who had to attend the committee rooms. Sifting through the detail is important work and the Oireachtas has done a good job in pulling those details out. The committee structure and the Committee of Public Accounts in particular has acquitted itself well over the last week or two.

With all of that detail coming out and the incessant updates that we see, an opportunity has to be taken to draw breath, step back and see the bigger picture implications. Once we begin to strip away what is salacious in this story and what drives the news cycle, we are seeing a wider context where the landscape around traditional media has changed. It has in fact been swamped by new media, particularly social media. Revenue streams that would traditionally have been relied on to fund the fourth estate, including public service broadcasting and also our newspaper sector, have fallen away. As that has fallen away, good quality investigative journalism has become increasingly difficult to fund. Even as the pace of the news cycle has increased, it has become dramatically more difficult to engage in the type of fact-checking and research that underpins good journalism.

In a social media age, the old adage that a lie goes halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on has never been more true. We have seen that context be exploited by social media keyboard warriors but also by more orchestrated bad faith actors. We have seen how that has culminated in straight-out attacks on our democracy. It may not necessarily be in this country yet but it is definitely happening in other jurisdictions. The truth is that when we step back from it, a public service broadcaster and a well-functioning, well-funded fourth estate is vital to the proper functioning of a democracy. In the longer term, once we have dealt with all the salacious details and grubby transactions that came to light last week, that is the issue we will be left to deal with. At a time when there is already a narrative with regard to mainstream media, which is a term I hate using, popularised by Mr. Trump in particular, and a constant undercutting of our public service broadcaster and quality news outlets, we have shattered trust among our public. It will be one of the big jobs of the Minister and of the incoming director general, once we have bottomed out this process and drawn all the necessary information out into the light, to actually begin a rebuilding process.

Neither am I blind to the shattered morale of people working at RTÉ. Like many other Deputies, I had the opportunity to travel to the RTÉ campus last week. There is an embattled mentality among many of the people working there. They found it to be an extremely difficult week. We know from Revenue returns that many of those people were engaged in employment in an inappropriate way, namely, bogus self-employment, and a payment has been made to Revenue on foot of that. That is a matter of public record. It was a testament to all the people who make those programmes happen that the coverage on RTÉ regarding RTÉ was of the quality and integrity we saw last week. It cannot have been easy, in the eye of that storm and with that kind of personal involvement, to maintain those standards, but they certainly did. It is incumbent on us to repay that high level of standards by making sure the quality of work performed in this House is of the same standard.

We are still a way away from that bottoming-out process. I understand the media committee will meet again tomorrow and the Committee of Public Accounts intends to have further meetings on the matter. There remains a culture issue, for sure. Many of the RTÉ representatives learned some hard lessons in the committee rooms last week. As I said, Kevin Bakhurst will have a job of work in front of him when he takes up his position. One issue that struck me during the committee meetings last week was that, while a lot of information came out, we had to ask the questions. It was not the case that we came in and all the detail was laid in front of us in order that we could get a full and clear picture from the off. The questions had to be put and the information had to be dragged out of some of the witnesses, such as details on the timeline for the suspension and resignation. That came some two and a half hours into the meeting of the media committee.

In regard to the timeline of who knew what when, there was an insistence that no one knew anything until 17 March, when the audit and risk committee reported it, but we then found out that, in fact, the problematic invoices had been flagged on 8 March. That is a significant time lag and it was several hours into committee proceedings before it emerged. There was also the sorry story about the invoices, how they were routed and who knew what about them, these consultancy fees. Who asked the difficult questions when raising those invoices, such as what we were actually talking about and what the detail of these invoices totalling €150,000 was?

There are still key players who need to appear before the Oireachtas committees. Dee Forbes, in particular, holds much of that information, and while we have to accept her bona fides in that it is her health that is preventing her from appearing, it is essential we hear that side of the story. Other Deputies suggested there was scapegoating at the committee meetings. If that was the case and that was the dynamic at play, so be it and let us get the other side of the story. Likewise, I think Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly will have to appear before the Oireachtas committees, and it is important that information be brought to light as well.

To return to the big picture, Deputy Bruton and others spoke about how we have to grasp the nettle in respect of the funding model. There has been a dual funding model, between commercial and public service broadcasting, and they do not always work well together. Whatever about straight-up commercial advertising revenue, whereby programme breaks go into paid-for advertising, which most viewers nowadays understand is separate from the content of the programme they are watching, beyond that there is the sponsorship of programmes, which is a different matter. If a company pays a broadcaster a bunch of money to sponsor its programme, will it expect to have a yea-or-nay on that programme's content? The same is true of product placement. If a presenter is driving to, say, a showhouse and he or she has a brand ambassador deal, is it a coincidence if he or she is driving a given type of car? It is less transparent or clear to me as a viewer how much influence has been bought in such a case, and it is even more opaque in respect of editorial decisions. They may be made in good faith or less than good faith, but if a large commercial revenue stream is being derived from, for example, a car manufacturer, an airline or a dairy enterprise, will that affect the editorial decisions a broadcaster makes in covering news stories? In that sense, are we going to undermine that public service broadcasting remit? There is no doubt this is a thorny issue, and I am always mindful of the Chomsky point of view that if you are getting a product for free, you are the product. When you begin to mix up those commercial and public funding models, you get into that space, which, along with the issue of shattered trust, is especially pertinent when we ask the taxpayer to pay for it. I have difficulty with the idea of a straight Exchequer funding model because it would call into question the level of power the Oireachtas would have, if it were a year-by-year budget line. That would, obviously, have implications inasmuch as the case of a car manufacturer would. It is something to be discussed in the longer term.

As I said, the way back has to begin with a bottoming-out process. There are still questions to be asked regarding the reform of cultural and corporate governance, and the Minister's external review will be an important part of that. Moreover, there needs to be a clear decision on staffing practices, given some people are employed as contractors in order for them to maximise their salary and others are employed as contractors to have their salary minimised. We cannot stand over that as an Oireachtas and it needs to be dealt with. We also need a clear line of sight on income and salaries. If taxpayers' money is going in, we should have a clear line of sight on exactly how it is being paid.

Furthermore, as was mentioned by the interim director general, we need to begin and maintain a register of interests in a meaningful way. If the person who is behind the microphone or in the editorial room has some sort of kickback coming from whatever source, that could be entirely legitimate - of course, people are allowed to maximise their income by taking side gigs - but I want to know about it as a consumer and a person who relies on the broadcaster. A central issue relates to direct auditing and whether the auditing of RTÉ should be brought back under the Comptroller and Auditor General. I suspect it should be, because it would give us a clear line of sight.

What we are really talking about here is a proper, functioning democracy. That might sound like a lofty take on it, but if we do not have a properly functioning fourth estate and if media influence can be bought and sold, that undermines the proper workings of our democracy, and that is good reason for us to protect and preserve the national public service broadcaster.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sharing time with Deputy Joan Collins.

I agree with Deputy Mattie McGrath regarding the report he raised, our failure to deal with it in the Dáil and the length of time we are forced to give to this topic because of the utter failure of governance. In the meantime, 15-, 16- and 17-year-olds are being collected in taxis and subjected to sexual abuse in hotels, and the hotels have expressed concern. We have never discussed that in this Dáil.

In respect of the matter before us, I welcome the Minister's detailed contribution and her acknowledgement that there have been serious corporate failings. I disagree they have come to light only in the past two weeks, given there was ample evidence before that within the organisation. It would seem from an article in The Sunday Timesthat serious questions were being asked in 2022, if not before, so something is wrong somewhere with the reporting mechanisms.

I appreciate the fact the Minister will set up two reviews and appoint a forensic accountant. The first review will relate to governance and culture, while the second will concern contractors' fees, HR and other matters. The Minister has been clear about that, but there is no timeline for the reports. When can we expect these reports from the two committees? It is essential information. Similarly, a forensic accountant will come in but we have no idea of when they will report either. This is, of course, on top of the other report that is already being carried out by Grant Thornton, and another report is due. That is five reports, on top of the work of the media committee and the Committee of Public Accounts, and we seem to be nowhere nearer finding out what has happened.

I will not go into the minutiae of this. The Minister has appointed the committees and the forensic accountant, subject to the Minister giving us the time limits. The committees are doing their work on the minutiae and I hope this matter will be brought to a relatively speedy conclusion. We need public service broadcasting and we need it adequately funded if we are to have a democracy that means anything. Without a publicly-funded public service broadcaster we are in serious trouble. Here we are now looking at something that should not have happened but I do not think it is unusual. I spent four years on the Oireachtas Committee of Public Accounts. I am on record as saying, with regard to university education, that I was singularly unimpressed by the presidents of the universities who came before us, as I was by Bord na gCon, by Horse Racing Ireland, and by some of the voluntary education committees, VECs. There was a theme permeating the whole lot, which was to give as little information as they could and get away with as much as they could.

The obvious questions include how something can be labelled as consultancy fees. Why did RTÉ underwrite an agreement between Mr. Tubridy and a commercial entity? What is the status of the register of interest? There was the use of private agents for a number of the stars but I always had a problem with that description. It was brought to my attention today that in 2018, when I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, RTÉ came before the committee and we thanked them on that day for coming before us because they were not obliged to come before us. I asked the Comptroller and Auditor General as to why this was. Helpfully, a briefing paper was given to us at that stage. RTÉ was subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General until 1990, under statutory provisions introduced in 1966. I will not go into the Broadcasting Act 1990, but it was under the remit until 1990 and then it was taken out of the remit. Significantly, in 1993 the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act extended the mandate of the Comptroller and Auditor General, but specifically excluded commercial bodies, including RTÉ. Each Government has been responsible for what has happened here with RTÉ in utterly failing to deal with adequate funding for RTÉ and failing to recognise the importance of it. On top of that, we had a White Paper that told us why we could not have oversight by the Comptroller and Auditor General. From 1992 onwards we were repeatedly told by various Governments and policy that oversight was not good by a Comptroller and Auditor General, and particularly when we were talking about a commercial outfit or part of a commercial outlet.

I do not seek to demonise any individual here. The system has utterly failed and now we have five entities going to look at it. All along, each Government has actually actively colluded with that system, where RTÉ was forced to look at going in a commercial manner for money.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I start by sending my solidarity to Palestinians worldwide in the face of the Israeli State's campaign against the civilians of Jenin. Bombs are hitting the city and its refugee camp as we speak. I condemn the murder of 11 Palestinians, including two children, by the Israeli State. I fear that we will see many more civilians lose their lives over the coming days. This is a campaign of bombing and attacks on an occupied city. It must be stopped and Ireland must step up now to recognise the state of Palestine, and recognise Israel for what it is, which is an apartheid state that have been carrying out a programme of ethnic cleansing against the people of Palestine for the past 75 years.

I say this for a reason. I concur with my colleague Deputy Connolly's question during Leaders' Questions this morning. I raise it because on RTÉ last night they called the latest attacks an Israeli army operation, and RTÉ had two speakers from the Israeli State but no representation from a Palestinian or from the state of Palestine.

I had listened to a representative of a food courier on the radio last week who was given a clear run of eight minutes on how great the business was and how great it was for workers, and yet that same day we heard Deputy Pringle raising issues here about bogus self-employment and the bad employment of these workers who are paid as little as €1.30 per delivery. Deputy Pringle called for €6 at least per delivery. There is a question mark over the role RTÉ has played and there are questions around the oversight of the debates on RTÉ as well.

The commercial element of RTÉ is a clear danger to the public service that it provides. Public service broadcasting cannot function in a proper way when it is subject to the pressures of the market. It cannot provide balance if it has to fear the loss of advertising revenue or commercial partnerships. I also have serious questions around RTÉ's ability to provide a public service when it is carrying out dodgy deals with commercial partners and when it is wining and dining them across the world at the public's expense.

It has also become clear that RTÉ has been acting less like a public broadcaster with a mandate to deliver a public service and more like a dodgy company that is a rogue employer that actively pursues policies to cheat its workers out of pay and benefits they are entitled to. The Eversheds' report into bogus self-employment at RTÉ found that 150 workers were compensated as contractors when they should have received full employment benefits. The Department of Social Protection investigation found more than 500 bogus self-employments. That 500 workers were being cheated is not just a mistake: it is an intentional policy to cut costs at the expense of workers' livelihoods and well-being. How can the public trust RTÉ when its own employees cannot even trust RTÉ to pay them properly?

I have recently received emails from a group of RTÉ employees outlining this policy of bogus self-employment. They outlined the damning situation for many workers at RTÉ. These are people who are employed by a taxpayer-funded institution and who have spent most of their working lives not receiving proper pay, not receiving proper sick or holiday pay and are set not to receive a proper pension benefit after they retire. This is all happening during these junkets, soirees and jollies and while accounts were set up as secret accounts, if not off balance sheet, which were being used to supplement the compensation of those at the top of RTÉ. Those at the bottom are not just facing being cheated out of pay and benefits, they were also having their work conditions cut and underfunded. Large areas in RTÉ have been massively underfunded. The cost of this is borne by the public through reduced or worse programming, and by the workers who had to shoulder more burden and do more work to keep it all together.

I stand in solidarity with the workers of RTÉ and their outrage that while they faced pay cuts, bogus self-employment and massive under resourcing of their work, those at the top of RTÉ were using moneys in a way they should not have.

I welcome the announcement of a root and branch investigation into RTÉ. I recently raised the issue that when there were food safety concerns at Iceland stores the place was crawling with health and safety officers the next day, but when concerns about workers safety were raised in the Dáil, and concerns about workers not being paid their wages - breaking the Payment of Wages Act - we did not see inspectors crawling the stores to find out what was going on.

I hope that part of this root and branch investigation will ensure that every worker who was placed on a bogus self-employment contract is properly compensated for every single hour of work they have done for RTÉ and that they will have their pension and all other benefits guaranteed and backdated.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis na Teachtaí as a gcuid ráiteas tráthnóna inniu. Léiríonn an suaitheadh a cuireadh in iúl agus an díospóireacht fhorleathan ar an ábhar seo le coicís anuas, lena n-áirítear sa Teach inniu, an leibhéal imní agus go deimhin, feirge, atá ar dhaoine faoi na teipeanna i rialachas agus i gcultúr RTÉ a chuir ar chumas na rudaí seo tarlú.

I thank the Deputies for their statements this afternoon. The shock expressed and the widespread debate on this matter over the past two weeks, including in the House today, illustrate the level of concern and anger at the failings in RTÉ's governance and culture that have enabled this matter to occur.

Today’s debate further illustrates the central and critical role public service broadcasting plays in the life and well-being of our country and our people. Public service broadcasting, at its best, provides programming that reflects the rich cultural diversity of Ireland. It informs, educates and entertains. It creates space for dialogue and fosters discussion and debate.

Since its inception in 1960, RTÉ has been the central plank of public service broadcasting in Ireland and has maintained a valued position in our society. We tune in to RTÉ for news, analysis, sports, culture and entertainment. In the 2023 Reuters Institute Digital News Report for Ireland, which is part funded by the media regulator, Coimisíún na Meán, RTÉ News was identified as the most trusted source of news in Ireland based on surveys of the public.

This has been demonstrated by how RTÉ journalists, as well as other media outlets, have reported on this current issue. They have done so with diligence and impartiality. In this regard, I am keenly aware of the damage that has been inflicted by this matter on the reputation of RTÉ and that trusted relationship with the public. This is equally reflected in the sense of anger and betrayal felt by the dedicated and hardworking staff across the range of functions in RTÉ whose professionalism, experience and skills are vital to the operation of RTÉ. It is for all these reasons that I am commissioning an independent examination into RTÉ.

With regard to Deputy Connolly’s question, the timeline is referenced and included in the press release issued today. If the Deputy wants, I can go through it briefly with her. I will be doing a procurement process because I feel it is very important that we have the right governance over this process. For the forensic accountant, that process will be slightly faster than for the independent examination and it will be initiated this week. I expect to have that forensic accountant in place by the end of July or early August. The two-pronged, root-and-branch independent examination will take slightly longer. Again, I will initiate the procurement process this week but, realistically, I do not think it will be in place until the end of August or early September. That is why I will have the forensic accountant in place first; it is because that process is faster. I will ask the accountant to look at the barter account and any other off-balance accounts.

I set out the terms of reference for the two reviews that will comprise the overall examination earlier in my opening statement to the House. Those are also included in the press release from the Department. The first review will examine the governance structures and the organisational culture in RTÉ, which Deputy Ó Cathasaigh queried. The second review will examine contractor fees, the engagement of presenters, the use of agents HR and other matters in RTÉ. I will, if necessary, extend the terms of reference of the reviews to take account of any further emerging issues, including any arising from deliberations of Oireachtas committees or the further Grant Thornton reports. I will also, as I have said, invoke my powers under section 109 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 to appoint a forensic accountant to assist in the work of the reviews.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the independent film fund? Will we look at that?

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will go back to my officials and look at that. I am just not sure if this is the right place for it-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is RTÉ money.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but I will look at it and come back to the Deputy on that.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is beyond the scope of this debate.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not. It is RTÉ expenditure.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister to conclude.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A number of Deputies mentioned the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General. As Deputy Connolly rightly pointed out, the current Broadcasting Act and the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act 1993 would need to be amended to send the Comptroller and Auditor General in to audit RTÉ. This could well be a recommendation of the report as part of the examination that is being done or the interim report of the expert governance advisory committee. I would be open to considering that and bringing that for discussion with my Cabinet colleagues if that is indeed a recommendation.

I was asked if I would bring the interim or full reports from the examination of RTÉ before the Oireachtas. I am committed to full transparency and if and when it is appropriate to bring these matters to Oireachtas hearings as part of the work, I am absolutely happy to do so.

Long-term funding was raised by a number of Deputies. I indicated when I announced this review last Saturday that the Government had paused the decision on the reform of the TV licence until the examination of RTÉ is complete and findings are considered. That remains appropriate. Any decision needs to be made in an environment of trust. We need to establish that trust and that means bottoming out on all the issues and having a process to prevent recurrence. The pause is only on the decision and I think the discussions should still take place. I was at a senior level of those discussions, which were at an advanced stage, before this issue emerged.

In my meeting this Friday with the chair and incoming director general, I will again emphasise to them in person the absolute necessity to fully co-operate with all reviews taking place. It is critical that we now restore trust and confidence in RTÉ. Transparency on all matters is critical at this juncture and I expect RTÉ, its board and executive to take all necessary measures to ensure this.

There was a query about the Grant Thornton review. I have asked for that review, which we were told last week would take four weeks, to be accelerated. I am now advised that it is running ahead of schedule and am assured that all concerned understand the urgency of it and that it needs to be completed as soon as possible. It is running ahead of schedule now.

We need a comprehensive accounting of the fundamental causes of the failures we have seen in RTÉ, full clarity on all issues and clear recommendations to prevent their recurrence in the future. In the midst of this crisis, there is an opportunity here for RTÉ to rediscover the values and ideals on which it was founded and to restore a robust, accountable and transparent corporate governance framework and an open and reformed organisation culture. I know that is something everybody in this House would support and I look forward to updating the Oireachtas on the progress and the examination in the coming months.