Dáil debates

Thursday, 20 September 2018

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Nursing Homes Support Scheme

3:45 pm

Photo of John BrassilJohn Brassil (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to raise this issue, which I have been pursuing for a number of months. It is very topical, given the issues regarding vacant properties, particularly around Dublin. Whereas I would in no way agree with the tactics of occupying properties illegally, it serves to highlight a very important issue, namely, that there are thousands of vacant properties and, to date, no scheme we have tried to address that has worked.

I have often heard the Minister of the day of either housing or health say one can have one's own opinion but one cannot have one's own facts. I will give the Minister of State some facts. In the last census, there were 245,000 vacant properties in the country, 62,000 of which were holiday homes. That leaves 183,000 vacant properties of which 140,000 were stand-alone units and 43,000 were apartments.

This Government has a huge opportunity to deal with the housing and homelessness crisis by utilising the existing stock. One element of that stock is houses vacated by people who are in nursing homes under the fair deal scheme. In figures I obtained from the Health Service Executive, HSE, currently there are 14,000 such properties in the country. Of those 14,000, as few as 600 are being re-let. I call on theGovernment to come up with an incentive to give the owners or the families of the people who own the houses an incentive to get those properties in use quickly. If it set even a minimum target of 10%, 1,300 houses would be in circulation within a six to 12-month period. Surely that is an incentive for the Government to try to deal with the 10,000 people who are homeless.

We talk about incentives. When people are long-term unemployed, we offer employers incentives to take them off the long-term register. If they keep them on for more than two years, they get €10,000 per year, and the person might maintain some of his or her benefits while getting back into full employment. I welcome that; it is a very good initiative. I propose that if we take people off the housing and homeless lists, an incentive would be given to the homeowner to do that. It does work but, to date, every initiative tried by the Government, including its repair and lease and buy and renew schemes, have not worked. I heard the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy English, on a radio programme last Monday morning with Fr. Peter McVerry trying to justify the repair and lease scheme. Fewer than 100 properties have been taken up under that scheme. I am not blaming the Minister of State. It is just that when it is announced we think it will be attractive but it is not attractive and when it is not, the Government should accept it and move on to something new. I am very interested to hear the Minister of State's reply because this is something that is waiting for some initiative and forward thinking to get viable homes back into use, which will make a valuable contribution towards our housing and homeless crisis.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I am taking this issue on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Daly, who apologises for not being present. I thank Deputy Brassil for raising this matter.

The nursing homes support scheme, NHSS, also known as fair deal, is a statutory scheme providing financial assistance for affordable and accessible long-term residential care for those applicants who satisfied a care needs assessment.

This financial assistance scheme is means tested. Participants of the scheme contribute up to 80% of their income and up to 7.5% of the value of their assets towards the cost of care, and the State pays the balance.

Under NHSS, rental income is considered income for the purpose of the financial assessment, and is assessed at 80% less any allowable deductions. Allowable deductions include income tax and, therefore, any income tax arising from rental income should be deducted; other deductions include some health expenses, levies required by law to be paid, and interest on some loans in respect of a person’s principal private residence.

Action 17 of the strategy for the rental sector commits the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government to examine the treatment, under the nursing homes support scheme’s financial assessment, of income from the rental of a person’s principal private residence where he or she moves into long-term residential care.

The Department of Health has received legal advice that changes to the treatment of rental income in the scheme would require changes to primary legislation. Possible changes to the scheme are being explored. However, significant further analysis and development of the options, including legal analysis and costings, is required before a decision can be made to bring forward any proposed changes to the NHSS. There is also a need to explore and consider operational consequences and any unintended consequences that might result from any proposed changes.

There are issues to be considered relating to renting out one’s principal private residence, for example, many older people in long-term care enjoy returning to their home temporarily as part of reminiscence programmes. They may also have all their personal belongings stored in their home, and bringing the home to market could possibly see the sale or discarding of their possessions. Many vacant homes would need significant improvements to be made to bring them to a rental market standard, and would therefore require significant investment. In addition, a change to the treatment of rental income could introduce inequality in the scheme, as pension income contributions will remain at 80%.

We should also consider whether someone requiring long-term residential care would be in a position to take on and manage the considerable financial and legal responsibilities that come with being a landlord.

Officials in the Department of Health are working with Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government officials in examining a number of possible options. The Minister of State, Deputy Daly, is not in a position, however, to provide detail on these as discussions are ongoing and any potential proposals have not been finalised.

Photo of John BrassilJohn Brassil (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for taking the question. I am quite disappointed with the tenor of the answer. It seems the Department is looking for more reasons not to introduce a scheme than to introduce one. Even if it is looking to introduce one, there is no timeline or delivery date for when such a proposal would come into use and begin to have an effect.

There are issues around everything the Minister of State spoke about but there are 14,000 houses waiting for some initiative. As I said, even if the Minister set a target of 10%, he would be making a very valuable contribution to the housing and homelessness crisis.

As for issues such as storage and people not being able to deal with matters because they are elderly, they often give over power of attorney to family members, and the Minister of State should not underestimate the ability of an elderly person to deal with such an issue. Many elderly people are more than capable. Just because a younger person has the years on his or her side does not mean he or she is capable of understanding a financial transaction, either. I assure the Minister of State that if the incentive is attractive, it will be understood quickly. I ask her to go back to the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, and to include the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy English, in the conversation as well. She should ask them to actively consider the proposal I have made and instead of finding reasons not to do it, come up with reasons they should do it and bring in solutions around that.

3:55 pm

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not underestimate any older person. My mother lived a long life to the age of 89, and she was well capable of making decisions herself. I do not underestimate that. I said in the reply clearly that local government officials and the Departments of Health and Housing, Planning and Local Government are examining a number of options that may be introduced in the future. However, the Minister is unfortunately not in a position to give me those briefings at the moment.

The Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, is mindful of the challenges of housing supply facing the Government and of how all Departments must work together to tackle the issues. In this regard, it is important that the Departments of Health and Housing, Planning and Local Government continue to work together. The Minister of State would like to assure older people that it is a matter of personal choice for any individual as to whether her or she wishes to rent or sell his or her home when taking up residency in a nursing home. Sometimes there are measures that we cannot take in government but we will continue to work to achieve some of the measures Deputy Brassil has proposed. The Minister of State is conscious of the fact that there are many dwellings owned by older people residing in nursing homes who unfortunately might not have family members to even participate in a process to rent out the property. I will pass on all the Deputy's concerns and the issues he has raised. I have taken note of them.