Dáil debates
Tuesday, 30 May 2017
Ceisteanna - Questions
National Security Committee
3:25 pm
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach when the most recent meeting of the national security committee took place; the current members of the committee; the number of times the committee meets each year; and the role of the committee. [23329/17]
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will outline the role of the national security committee. [24641/17]
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the role and functions of the national security committee. [25619/17]
Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach when the last meeting of the national security committee took place; and the primary role and responsibilities of the committee. [25652/17]
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach the details of the meeting he held on 25 May 2017 on national security. [25942/17]
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach when the national security committee last met. [25977/17]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions No. 1 to 6, inclusive, together.
Having regard to the confidential nature of the work of the national security committee, it would not be appropriate to disclose information about the dates of individual meetings or about its proceedings.
The committee is chaired by the Secretary General to the Government and comprises representatives at the highest level of the Departments of Justice and Equality, Defence and Foreign Affairs and Trade, and of the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces.
It is concerned with ensuring the Government and I are advised of high level security issues and the responses to them, but not with operational security matters.
The committee meets as required and will continue to do so. In addition to the meetings, the members liaise on an ongoing basis to monitor developments that might have national security implications, in particular in the international arena.
As regards the meeting of 25 May, its purpose was to review the State's arrangements and level of preparedness in the event of a major terrorist attack.
As well as the Tánaiste and me, the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, the Minister for Health, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Minister of State at the Department of Defence and the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment attended, with the Garda Commissioner, the Chief of Staff and senior officials. The meeting was briefed on the current threat assessment by the security authorities. It was noted that while a terrorist attack was possible, it was unlikely and that there was no specific information on any threat to Ireland from international terrorism. This assessment will remain under continuous review. The authorities remain in daily contact with their counterparts in the United Kingdom, the European Union and beyond. The Garda authorities, supported by the Defence Forces, are engaged in ongoing work aimed at preventing an attack taking place. Detailed preparations have also been made in the event of an attack. Other agencies also have plans in place to deal with the outcome of major incidents.
Ministers were also briefed on the overall national emergency management arrangements, involving all of the agencies of the State, and how the arrangements would operate in the event of a major incident. The meeting was advised that the Garda authorities were working closely with event organisers to ensure appropriate safety and security measures were in place at major events. The Garda is asking the public to remain vigilant and report immediately any issue which gives rise to concern.
Of equal importance is ongoing work to ensure people do not become alienated from our society and radicalised. Terrorism is caused not by particular religions or peoples but by hatred. The aim of international terrorism is to change our way of life through creating fear. We cannot and will not allow that to happen. It is important that we abide by our values and continue to live our lives to the full in a free society.
3:35 pm
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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As six Members have tabled these questions, is it agreed that we take their supplementary questions together and then call on the Taoiseach for a response? Agreed.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Accountability and transparency are essential ingredients of a well functioning democracy. National security issues, however, allow governments that are basically democratic to opt out of these responsibilities and justify actions which often constitute gross infringements of human rights under the guise of protecting citizens. Ireland's national security committee, NSC, by its nature, deals with sensitive information and intelligence on both dissident and international threats, some of which must be kept confidential for obvious reasons. However, the secrecy surrounding this organ of the State is unparalleled. Although operational matters regarding State security fall to various units within An Garda Síochána, the NSC dictates the State's response to issues of defence, intelligence and national security and advises the Government on them. All information on meetings of the NSC, including the dates of past meetings, is kept secret and the NSC answers to nobody but itself. The equivalent UK body reports directly to the Intelligence and Security Committee of the Westminster Parliament which was set up in 1994 and is responsible for the management and oversight of the policy on, administration and expenditure of all security services, including the Government Communications Headquarters, GCHQ, and provides for oversight of defence intelligence in the Ministry of Defence and the Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism in the Home Office.
In June 2015 the Taoiseach admitted to the House that Ireland could not consider itself to be immune from international terrorist threats. However, at the same time he is happy to continue Ireland's complicity with the US military machine by allowing US aircraft operating in theatres of war to land at Shannon Airport and overfly Irish airspace. Some of these aircraft are even thought to have stopped at Shannon Airport while on rendition flights. Permitting US aircraft to use Shannon Airport unchecked is a tacit declaration of support for the United States' murderous policies in the Middle East. This breach of our neutrality is surely a prime reason Ireland might be seen as a target for international terrorism. Does the Taoiseach think we should re-think allowing Shannon Airport to be used as a US military base?
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My question is about the mechanisms for oversight of the National Security Committee because while there is an understandable need for confidentiality, it must be balanced with proper accountability mechanisms. Will the Taoiseach outline the accountability and scrutiny mechanisms in place for overseeing the role of the National Security Committee? Does the committee share or authorise the sharing of intelligence information with other governments? Is anybody politically responsible for clearing it? There has been some speculation about the possibility of establishing an overarching, more structured agency with responsibility for security. Willl the Taoiseach give us an update?
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I wish to focus on the security of the State in the light of some of the comments made last week after the horrific bombing in Manchester. It would be extremely naive to think this country would not possibly be the site of an attack. We must have a proper debate about these matters. To put it bluntly, the notion that there is a secret committee examining and hearing about threats to the State is fine, but there must be some democratic exchange about these matters, either through a committee of the House or the briefing of leaders. Some mechanism must be found. We have moved into a new space. For example, have efforts been made to assess the number of people moving from conflict zones back to Ireland? How do we identify such persons? Are they monitored in Ireland?
During my period in government I recall that when I introduced Estimates, there was always a Secret Service Vote. It was a matter of conjecture what that Vote was. It was always for a token sum of €1 million, a relatively small sum of money. Do we have a Vote for a proper intelligence service? To pick up on the last question asked by Deputy Gerry Adams, the last time we held this discussion in the House I raised the need for a separate intelligence security unit. There are two reasons, one of which is that we are now in a different space or paradigm. Second, cyber security is an area into which we must put effort and resources. We saw what happened - I am not saying it was a cyber attack -- when there was a breakdown in a computer system at British Airways which crippled that enormous company worldwide. Are we protected against cyber attacks? We must have such capacity, but I am not sure we have. Will the Taoiseach give his views on the matter?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree that there is a need for greater democratic involvement in, and oversight of, what we are doing in this area. There is an immediate question that requires an answer. How will we co-operate with the UK Government in the post-Brexit era if we are to have a common travel area? It was reported, although it is only conjecture at this stage, that one of the people detained after the bombing in Manchester last week had spent some time in Ireland. That will continue post-Brexit. I also recall reading in some of the British media last weekend that one of the concerns post-Brexit was that the sharing of intelligence information with European colleagues would be increasingly difficult. What is the mechanism post-Brexit for us to share security information with the British Government, especially given that we have a common travel area and such strong connections? I also call on the Taoiseach to provide for the wider involvement of Members of the House in overseeing what our security officials are doing in this regard. It is important that it not be done in secret. Obviously, one understands the need for secrecy, but there is a requirement for democratic oversight, as occurs at Westminster but not here.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The most important matter is the narrative for how we describe acts of terrorism. There can never be any justification - I do not quite agree with Deputy Mick Wallace's perspective - for slaughtering innocents and civilians in the manner in which they were slaughtered in Manchester. We have had experience of this in the past. The IRA campaign of bombing civilians was no different from what we witnessed in Manchester last week, including the bombings in Birmingham, Enniskillen and at La Mon. There can be no moral equivocation about which is worse. The fundamental difference between the two is that, in the case of the IRA, in motst cases the perpetrators made sure that they got away before many civilians were brutally slain for no justifiable reason.
I agree with Deputy Brendan Howlin that we cannot be complacent. We are a soft target, like many others. The raison d'êtreof ISIS operators is to hit where they can and to hit the softest target they possibly can. In the past, owing to what happened in Northern Ireland because of the IRA's campaign, we had much stronger security capacity.
That is my sense of it. Since the peace process, we have lost a lot of corporate intelligence and so on. We really need to recreate it in the context of the ISIS threat.
On the issue of having a separate crime and security agency, the Kathleen O'Toole commission should be asked to ascertain the optimal approach for us to intelligence and security. The battle against ISIS and others is about trying to counter extremism on the ground and in communities, which is very important, and also about having deep and good intelligence to avert atrocities. Are Irish citizens who return having fought in Iraq or Syria on behalf of ISIS tracked? Is there any penalty for those who participate with ISIS overseas? Are they just allowed back into the country? The Minister for Justice and Equality said in answering questions that it was known that up to 30 people had participated in Syria and Iraq. Can they just fly back in with no penalties? Do our laws need to be overhauled in that regard? We have to have zero tolerance of anybody who participates in such activity overseas and who has the freedom to come back and carry on as if life were normal.
3:45 pm
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In the aftermath of the dreadful events in Manchester, are there plans for a national intelligence agency? What would be the cost of such an agency? We are all aware that many reports are being produced and that many commissions are working on various elements of An Garda Síochána. Is this one of the issues that will be examined?
Deputy Enda Kenny, as the outgoing Taoiseach, may be very well placed to offer some insights, in the context of his experience as Taoiseach, into what would be the optimum. We hear a lot of dissatisfaction being expressed about how protected Ireland is. We hear suggestions of inadequate resources at various points at ports and airports. In my constituency and most of the Leinster region there is a very high number of people from other countries, which is very good. We also know that we have a very significant Libyan population living in Ireland. There should be more focus on integration, particularly of young people, in schools and colleges and, in particular, our efforts to ensure they do as well as possible in the school system and will also have opportunities to engage in further education and employment. Otherwise, we could end up with people with great hopes but who are left outside our systems, as happens in other countries. Therein lies the danger.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is probably one of the most serious matters that can ever be considered here. There are some things one can say and some things one cannot say. Facilities at Shannon Airport have been used for many years by members of the US Air Force, but I have no evidence of rendition flights through it. Deputy Mick Wallace has been there on a number of occasions.
Deputy Gerry Adams has stated we cannot consider ourselves to be immune. That is true and there is no complacency. The weapons of bombers have changed and are changing. Clearly, the incidents in France, Belgium, Berlin and Sweden lead us to believe this. There is now the capacity to take remote control of a vehicle and drive it at speed into a crowd of people, with or without a driver. More primitive weapons are being used to carry out the same destruction, leading to international incidents.
The question of having a separate security group or force has been raised. I am not sure we want an MI5 or an MI6 here, but the O'Toole commission which is examining the structure, policing and security matters, as raised by Deputies Mícheál Martin, Brendan Howlin and Joan Burton, can consider the matter in a way which allows us to reflect a very dangerous and changing world.
As Deputy Mícheál Martin is aware, the Defence Forces obviously have intelligence available to them on small numbers of people who might be in the country for purposes other than peaceful living. They are under review on a constant basis. That intelligence is made available to the Garda and shared on a very regular basis. Clearly, the Garda and the security forces generally are in constant touch, or daily contact, with Britain, the rest of Europe and beyond, where necessary.
Deputy Mícheál Martin referred to the slaughter of innocent victims. While all cases are tragic, one of the differences is that suicide bombers want to be blown up. The Provisional IRA did not want that to happen. It caused the same destruction and no warnings were given and people suffered tragic consequences.
The preparations for a serious incident here have covered and do cover a range of options, about which I cannot speak. No matter where one puts the cordon of security, however, people have to gather outside it to get in and these are always issues of grave concern. I expect the O'Toole commission to examine the issue of security or a security element-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach have a view?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy is aware, we have had enough discussion here about the structure of the Garda to get it right. If there is to be a second element, which may well be worthwhile, that is another matter. I do not want to prejudge the expertise available to the O'Toole commission. The evolution through the independent Policing Authority and the changes with GSOC and the Garda Inspectorate will all lead to a change in culture in the Garda over a number of years. Whether it would be right to have a second intelligence and security element is a matter I do not want to prejudge, but it is working well in other countries. We have had our own system. Obviously, there have been inadequacies that we are trying to rectify.
Radicalisation has been mentioned. It is not a religious issue. The Garda has the capacity to engage with different and diverse communities to understand what is happening and what is likely to be of interest to us. There is a lot of activity in that area.
Deputy Mícheál Martin mentioned people coming back to Ireland having fought with ISIS. As I said, there is a small number of people in the country who are certainly under scrutiny.
Deputy Joan Burton raised the question of having an intelligence agency. It will certainly be an element of the focus of the O'Toole commission. I do not want to prejudge it. Let us get the system we have in place right. I assure Members that at the meeting I attended with representatives of the Garda, the Defence Forces and the health, transport and aviation sectors they informed me that they were all very active in looking out for potential incidents that might occur here. The sharing of information is important. It is quite complex and very complicated in terms of the information stored on servers here with major companies. Privacy and the protection of data are very strongly valued by them, yet we have to share information with our UK colleagues who might see potential terrorists passing through Britain, including to case a place with the intention of carrying out an incident later. That is a matter we have to deal with through legislation, which is very complicated. At the same time, we have to and do share information on potential terrorists with our colleagues across the water. That is an issue that is being focused on by the Department of Justice and Equality.