Dáil debates
Wednesday, 24 May 2017
Topical Issue Debate
Land Issues
4:20 pm
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted that the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has come to the Chamber. Perhaps we can clarify this issue.
As the Minister of State will be aware, considerable lands have been burnt in recent months due to the dry season. A large part of this is on commonage. In the west, commonage comprises shares in the commonage, unlike the collops in the east, and part of this is on private land. Let us accept one thing at the beginning and we need go no further on it. Anyone who purposely burned their land is ineligible - end of story. However, where a farmer is a shareholder in a commonage and someone else started a fire which damaged that farmer's land, does the farmer have to take it out of his payment scheme application, despite him having no hand, act or part in the burning and not acting illegally in any way? If that farmer takes it out and then makes a case that he should have been allowed to leave it in, since it was a force majeure case, will the Department put it back in? On the other hand, if a farmer leaves it in, the Department decides the land should not have been left in because it did not become green enough, fast enough, the Department comes after the farmer on the basis the land was not eligible, and the farmer claims force majeure on the basis that he had no hand, act or part in it and it was beyond his or her control that the land was burned, will the Department not penalise the farmer?
The regulation states to the effect that an exception may arise where a farmer can clearly show that they had nothing to do with the burning of the land in question. It is generally much harder to prove that one did not do a thing than that one did do a thing, so it is very hard for a farmer to prove that he did not burn land or start a fire. I am asking a straight question because I think we need straight answers. In the event of a farmer submitting evidence to the Department that there is no ongoing investigation by An Garda Síochána into any allegation of him burning their land, that he has not been charged with such or convicted of such in the year 2017, is that sufficient evidence for the Department that, as stated in the regulation, the person had nothing to do with the burning of the land in question?
We need clarity because between now and whatever the last date is for amending maps, farmers are being asked to make an incredibly difficult decision in that they do not know how the Department will adjudicate this. Do farmers take the land out of the application and make a case to put it back in again, which is very unlikely because if farmers do that, the Department will tell them they took it out, or do they leave it in and say they will fight the Department on the grounds that they had nothing to do with the burning and an exception to this may arise? Since we are only talking about people who did not light fires, does it arise in these cases and are they cleared when they can show, by producing evidence, that they had nothing to do with starting the fire? This is the clarity that farmers deserve because we cannot play hide-and-go-seek with them and leave them in a position where they do not know the correct decision to take. Do they take the land out of their applications and try to put it back in, which is a nonsense because I know if the land is out, the Department will tell farmers they will not get it in again because they took it out, or do farmers leave the land in and fight the Department on the basis that, according to the Department's own words, it will make an exception if the farmers have nothing to do with setting the fire? This is the burning questions in Connemara at the moment.
4:30 pm
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is indeed the burning question. After being in the Deputy's constituency in Connemara, Cloosh Valley in particular, the evidence of the extent of the burning is very graphic. I will try to deal with some of the specifics.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can we throw away the script for this?
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have to read this. The Deputy will know that from his experience in government.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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As the House will be aware, there have been incidences recently of illegal burning on agricultural and eligible forestry land in the closed period that has led to the outbreak of serious fires in various counties throughout the country. These fires have resulted in significant damage to substantial areas of agricultural and forestry land, and significant expenditure has been incurred by the various authorities in firefighting and control efforts. I am deeply concerned about the impact of these illegal fires across a wide range of areas, including the damage to agricultural land and valuable forestry assets, the loss of important forestry and wildlife habitats, and the serious risk posed to life, homes and property. We cannot not tolerate such irresponsible acts. Under section 40 of the Wildlife Act 1976 it is an offence to burn, from 1 March to 31 August in any year, any vegetation growing on any land not then cultivated. Individuals who are found to have burned vegetation within that prohibited period are liable to prosecution by An Garda Síochána or by the National Parks and Wildlife Service, which deals with one of the specific questions. My Department will provide any support required to these parties to ensure compliance with the requirements of this Act.
As I have stated, the burning of agricultural and forestry land during the closed period is illegal. This is clearly outlined in the terms and conditions for the basic payment scheme which issues to all applicants annually. The Department has commenced a comprehensive investigation of the recent incidences of illegal burning using all available technology, including satellite imagery. This investigation involves complex analysis of imagery from a range of resources worldwide to determine accurately the specific locations of lands subject to such illegal burning and also the extent of the area impacted by the burning. Where necessary and to assist the investigation process, such burnt land may be inspected by officials from my Department. The investigation is ongoing and will take some weeks to complete. It would be premature at this stage to speculate as to the actual area involved or the specific number of applicants under the area-based schemes affected. However, the House can be assured that the necessary resources within my Department will be deployed to complete this investigation as quickly as possible.
On the matter of illegally burnt agricultural and eligible forestry land being eligible under the basic payment scheme and other area-based schemes, the Department’s guide to land eligibility clearly states that land which is burned is not eligible as it is not in a state suitable for grazing or cultivation and therefore not eligible for the basic payment and other area-based schemes. The EU regulations governing these schemes prescribe that land being submitted for payment must be in an eligible state. All applicants under the basic payment scheme and other area-based schemes who have submitted their 2017 applications to my Department should review their applications and identify if their application includes land which has been burned in the closed period and consider removing this land from their application. The withdrawal of such land from their application can be undertaken by using the Department's online facility or by downloading an amendment form from the Department’s website and posting it to the Department’s office in Portlaoise. There are specific issues around GLAS and cross-compliance which I can return to.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We are going around in circles. Unfortunately, most of the Minister of State's response could have been left out. In my question, I discounted those who illegally burnt land. They are ineligible; there is no question. The Minister of State read from a script, the first page and a half of which was irrelevant. The issue is where a farmer did not burn his land and had no hand, act or part in it, but where he is in a commonage, part of which was burnt. Let us throw away the script for a while and make decisions here. The Minister of State, as a hill farmer, knows that he has to make day-to-day practical decisions, and the kind of vague language here is not helping us.
The first question is if I take land out of the application now, do I take it that a case cannot be made to put it back in again because I have taken it out? From the Minister of State's knowledge of how the Department operates, am I correct in thinking that if a farmer takes the land out, the Department is not going to put it back in again? By going down that route, the farmer definitely loses. Route two is that the farmer leaves it in. If a farmer proves in the way I outlined earlier, through An Garda Síochána, the only people who can confirm his innocence, that the farmer is not in any way being investigated for any illegality and that he or she had no hand, act or part in the burning, will the Minister of State confirm if that is adequate proof, or will he suggest alternative adequate proof?
The second question is, if a farmer makes that case under force majeure,will he be paid? The third question is as follows. The Minister of State knows that when hill land burns, it becomes green very fast. If we give it a month or two in the summer, it could be green for a sufficient period to put stock on it.
4:40 pm
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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May I make a final brief point?
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should be brief.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If the land becomes green very fast, will that also make it eligible? There are three parts to my question. We need "Yes" or "No" answers because it is not fair to the farmers. I know the Minister of State's heart is with us but it is time for him to take control of the Department instead of the Civil Service taking control of him.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will be very frank. Ongoing eligibility checks are carried out. I had a RAPID field inspection last year. One is just a random herd number and one is subjected to inspections on an ongoing basis. The inspectors will be here and because the issue is so high profile, they will be all over it.
In many ways, the Garda or the NPWS determine guilt or innocence in the first instance. If an individual is subject to a follow-through and determined to not have been culpable, the first box is ticked and it is accepted that he or she was not responsible. There is a lot of investigation involved. In the context of the massive fire that occurred in the Deputy's part of the country, there is the question of where it started. It is obvious that, as it blazed through, people had no control over whether it affected their property, commonage or anything else. There were four houses under significant threat.
On the question of eligibility and fast regrowth, 31 May is the date that has to be considered. One must comfortably establish in one's own mind that one was not culpable in respect of starting the fire. These are taken on a case-by-case basis. Each individual must determine if it is green. I know the uplands. We are trying to put a vegetation management plan in place to manage uplands. It will be controlled and managed and will incorporate controlled burning on a managed basis every year, not just in one year. If a person is comfortable that the land will be eligible on 31 May, it might be subject to an on-site inspection. It probably will be subject to such an inspection in any event. If it is deemed to be grazing or forage land, it is taken on a case-by-case basis.
There was a third question.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The question I have is even if it is not eligible on that date, since there was force majeure-----
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In that case, the person must proceed with the force majeureappeal.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Once the Department comes after the person.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes. In respect of individual herd numbers, farmers will be notified that it has come to the Department's attention-----
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If the person takes the force majeure case, will he or she win in those circumstances? That is what we want to know.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I cannot say that every one of them will win.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What if they fulfil certain conditions? If a person answers every question correctly on the maths paper in the leaving certificate, the or she will get 100%.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are wandering now.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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One other point to make is that if the land was eligible on the date of the application-----
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not eligible in that it is burnt but-----
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----and was subsequently burnt-----
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We might need to continue this afterwards.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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-----and the applicant can prove it-----
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Minister of State to conclude.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a final question the Minister of State did not answer.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The time is up.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If one takes it out, I take it there is no way of getting it back in again.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I do not know why one would take it out if one was going to plead force majeure.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly. If one takes it out, it will not go back in.
Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I cannot answer that question but I can get clarification on it.
Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister of State get his officials to have an answer tomorrow?
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Minister of State and the Deputy will correspond with each other afterwards. That concludes Topical Issues.