Dáil debates
Tuesday, 23 May 2017
Ceisteanna - Questions
National Economic and Social Council
4:25 pm
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the National Economic and Social Council and the work programme under way. [23086/17]
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach when the intended reforms of the National Economic and Social Council will become effective. [23091/17]
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the National Economic and Social Council and the work programme under way. [24016/17]
Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach when the next meeting of the National Economic and Social Council will take place. [24358/17]
Seán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach the status of his commitment in his Department's statement of strategy regarding a better society and the work being done with the National Economic and Social Council with regard to having an input into the development of economic and social policy. [24361/17]
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 to 14, inclusive, together.
I have appointed a new National Economic and Social Council, NESC. The new council will meet on 24 May and I expect that it will discuss its work programme and working methods at that meeting. It is a matter for the council to agree its own working arrangements.
The council's remit is to analyse and report on strategic issues for Ireland’s economic, social, environmental and sustainable development. I am keen that the council considers longer-term issues such as housing, broadband, climate change, pensions and long-term funding models in education and health. The NESC, with its track record of engagement and consistent and high quality work on contentious issues, has an important role to play. As the Deputies will be aware, the NESC secretariat continues its work on issues relevant to the programme for Government, including jobless households, social dimensions of the crisis, consumer prices, labour market activation and the funding of higher education.
The new council has a reduced membership of three members each from the nominating sectors, seven independents and six public servants. This is in line with the views of the outgoing members around the need for smaller, more focused plenary sessions and a strong representation from the Government side. I will circulate membership of the council for the benefit of Members which includes people from the business and employer sector, the ICTU, the farming and agriculture sector, the community and voluntary sector, the environmental sector, public servants and independent experts.
4:35 pm
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The first supplementary question will be from Deputy Burton, on behalf of Deputy Howlin.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Now that the members of the new council have finally been appointed, has it been given instructions on what the priorities are for examinations and studies? The council might be an appropriate body to do some work on Brexit, particularly on the political, social and economic sensitivities arising from the prospect of parallel or shadow customs and border facilities and the race by the Taoiseach's counterparts in the UK, the Conservative Party, for a hard Brexit. It is odd that there is no indication from the Taoiseach of what the group is likely to prioritise. There are other issues, such as employment, and the council has done work in the past on jobless households. There are issues around health and with regard to both ageing and young populations.
There may be implications for the economy from changes in America's approach to trade relationships, including with Ireland, and from tax issues between Ireland and the European Commission such as the fallout from the Apple case. These are vital issues but Brexit is the overriding one and I am surprised that, given all the public service brains which will gather in one room tomorrow, the Taoiseach will not commission them to have a serious look at Brexit, particularly in respect of the Border.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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If we stick rigidly to the time, the Taoiseach may have time to reply. There are seven minutes left.
Carol Nolan (Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The role of the National Economic and Social Council is to analyse and report to the Taoiseach on strategic issues in respect of the State's economic, social, environmental and sustainable development. It is an important body bringing together representatives from across society, including business and employers' organisations, trade unions, farming bodies and the community and voluntary sector. The Taoiseach last appointed the council in 2011 and its five-year term has now expired. The Taoiseach indicated some months ago that his Department was assessing the arrangements around the appointment of a new council, its structure and its future role and work programme. Can the Taoiseach update the Dáil on the current work of his Department in this regard?
The issue of Brexit and its numerous implications for our economy and communities are issues on which the NESC should report regularly. Given our ageing population and the economic and social implications of the crisis in health provision, housing and infrastructure, there is a lot for the NESC to be focusing on. The Government seems to be taking an unusually long time to decide whom it should appoint and what it should do with the NESC. In this respect the Government also appears to be having similar problems in respect of nine semi-State bodies which, according to recent reports, have chief executives who have remained in their posts beyond their seven-year term limit. The 2016 code of practice for the governance of State bodies states that it is the normal policy to limit semi-State chief executives to single-term contracts of between five and seven years. Is the failure to stick with this code of practice evidence of the paralysis that has gripped Government since last year's election?
Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am glad the council has been reconvened and will meet tomorrow and I am also glad that it is smaller. I propose that it address the way we make a just transition to a low-carbon economy. Deputy Micheál Martin raised the issue of peat workers in Littleton who are losing their jobs and there is an opportunity here to use our partnership model to bring people together in order to manage the change to a low-carbon economy with a just transition.
It is appropriate to have a slimmer National Economic and Social Council but it should also be flexible. We should bring in international economic and social advice, as well as input from local communities and experts in specific areas, to any commission to achieve a just transition. It should not be the old structure with the same reliable operators, good as they are in representing particular interests. It should be a more flexible council which allows people to come in and go out and invites people from right down at the granular level of local communities to take part, with different people coming in for different issues.
The National Economic and Social Council should look at the economic and social justice aspects of low-carbon transition because it is clear that under the current system the Departments of Public Expenditure and Reform, Finance, and Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation do not have the faintest idea what to do, nor the economic analysis nor the capability to assess the transition we need to make. The National Economic and Social Council could be a good home for this analysis. It needs to be quick and there would need to be an immediate response, for example, to the workers in Tipperary so that they are not left adrift. A more flexible and innovative council could address these strategic but specific cases and I hope the Taoiseach puts this forward as an idea for the work of the council tomorrow.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Six years ago the Government effectively abandoned the idea of taking policy consultations seriously. In retrospect, the evidence suggests that the mounting failures of Government to plan for a major crisis could have been avoided if there had been genuine political engagement, with policy debate and analysis. In the past, the NESC played a crucial role in providing a foundation for policy development by holding high level discussions, finding agreed baseline facts and identifying potential solutions. A defining problem of the past three years in particular has been the absence of a serious policy basis underpinning Government strategy. As a result, we have seen disjointed announcements defined more by repackaging current activity than actually doing something about a problem. The recent announcements on housing exemplify this, with the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, Deputy Simon Coveney, announcing a help-to-buy scheme while the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Leo Varadkar, says he will get rid of it, all in the space of nine months. A disjointed incoherence has been evident in such announcements.
The mounting crisis in housing was at first ignored by Government and a growing series of housing strategies has delivered more ministerial announcements than houses. A recurring theme has been the Taoiseach telling us how seriously he takes the NESC but then ignoring it at crucial stages of policy review and development. We get the sense that there is a lot of ad hockery. If there had been a proper policy basis underlying the strategy and continuous engagement with that, especially from Government, the crises could have been averted. It is clear that the Government took its eye off the ball on housing in 2011, 2012 and 2013. It states that it never saw the level of homelessness getting to the level to which it got but Focus Ireland and the Simon Community had alerted people in 2012 and 2013 to the fact that it was going to get worse. There did not appear to be a policy basis in the Government's response and we are still in serious trouble with housing and homelessness. The Government is not catching up with it and the situation is becoming worse, as we all know from having met and engaged with people on the ground.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach has no time left, but we will give him a few minutes.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I had better make a comment but I will keep it short. Deputy Burton mentioned shadow borders. I understand the Commissioner, at the meeting last week, was talking about hypothetical situations. There was agreement at the meeting that the political outcomes would be impossible to quantify until the negotiations got started.
The political imperative is that there should be no return to what was there. In that context, and as I discussed with Deputy Nolan on the earlier group of questions, we need to examine issues such as dealing with two different jurisdictions even if there are no tariffs. As already stated, the Commissioner was referring to hypothetical situations.
I agree with Deputy Eamon Ryan that the NESC should be more flexible and adaptable. The approach should suggest that. That is the message we will give to the group, although it is within its remit to determine its own working arrangements. In view of the current situation, I agree that it should be more flexible and adaptable.
Deputy Nolan's question is somewhat premature, particularly in view of the fact that the meeting will take place tomorrow. All of the groups are represented with the exception of farming and agriculture. Nominees to represent the latter are yet to be confirmed. It is up to those groups to make the nominations. As the Deputy will appreciate, there are some very good people involved in this process. They are going to consider the question of housing, broadband, climate change, long-term funding models in education and health, pensions and any other issues that need to be dealt with. The council will look at the issues of jobless households, the social dimensions of the crisis, consumer prices, labour market activation and the funding of higher education.
Deputy Micheál Martin made some interesting observations. Nobody foresaw Brexit six years ago. It was not even on the horizon. Until 11 o'clock on the night before the referendum, those in favour of a leave vote believed it was never going to happen. That it did was an indictment of the failure to have proper political involvement in the context of explaining to people what Brexit was about. There were so many different-----
4:45 pm
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My question was not in respect of Brexit.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am aware of that. The Deputy said that nobody foresaw the economic crisis. One could not have foreseen Brexit. When Fine Gael was in opposition during the years 2002 to 2007, Deputy Bruton repeatedly spoke about the housing bubble and stated that it was going to burst. What was he told? That things would get boomier and boomier.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He proposed that we reduce taxes in that regard.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A person sat in this chair and said that we did not need any more tax receipts from housing. Deputy Michéal Martin knows that the whole thing stagnated for nine months as a result of that. We now have to deal with the repercussions.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Richard Bruton proposed a cut in stamp duty which would have fuelled the boom.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I understand that. There is a massive effort to provide supply of houses. I hope that, at its meeting tomorrow, the NESC shows an adaptive approach and deals with these issues.