Dáil debates
Wednesday, 11 November 2015
Topical Issue Debate
Pension Provisions
1:50 pm
Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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I wish to highlight an issue that many people mistakenly believe has been solved. Sadly, it has not, and that is why I feel the need to raise it on the floor of the Dáil. People will be well aware of the Waterford Crystal pensions issue. The factory was the pride of Waterford and it was shut down very suddenly. Scenes from the grey days of the closure were carried on the news and are burnt into the memory of every person in Waterford. There is not a family in Waterford that has not been affected. This is a very difficult time for everybody.
My colleague, the former MEP Proinsias De Rossa, was one of the people who from the very early days supported the former workers in pointing out that they might have a case to bring in respect of their pensions after the double insolvency of the company. As we know, the case was fought by this State and brought to the European Court of Justice before being sent to the Irish courts for settlement. As a Waterford Deputy, I believe the route that was taken was a very difficult one. It brought me no pleasure to see the case being fought in the court system. However, I have done my very best to support the workers as best I could. I have set up meetings and kept in close contact with the former workers and Unite all along the way. Much of the work has been behind the scenes. I have been fighting the corner of the former workers at every opportunity presented to me, be it in regard to PRSI reimbursement or the outcome agreed. I thank the Labour Relations Commission, Mr. Kieran Mulvey, Unite and the Department of Social Protection for brokering the conclusion on the deal.
What makes me raise this issue, however, brings me no pleasure, although there have been some very positive developments in the Waterford Crystal pensions case in the past year, with a sum of €182 million agreed as compensation after the company and its pension scheme went into insolvency. The agreement was announced last December. Included in the settlement was a lump-sum payment of approximately €45 million. It has taken a while, and there have been many ups and downs on the journey, but I am very happy to see that during the summer months, to the considerable relief of the workers and their families, they received their lump-sum payments. However, two issues arise and I will not go back to Waterford this week until I have an answer in respect of both. People are sick of ringing my office and the Department only to have no information forthcoming. I spoke to a man this morning who said he had paid his dues for 42 years and was not asking for anything to which was not entitled. Of the 1,774 claimants in the case, the number of pensioners is actually quite small. What I want to know is when these pensioners will get their payment. The people who have turned 66 are entitled to their pensions and are still waiting for this matter to be sorted. I demand to know what the delay is. Have the pensioners not been waiting long enough? I have been trying to get answers for weeks, to no avail. I acknowledge that the staff of the Department of Social Protection have been brilliant, particularly the team led by Mr. Liam Daly in the offices on the Cork Road in Waterford, but we need to get this sorted. The request is simple.
The second question, which is very emotive, requires an answer. Since the pension case was put in train, 44 people have died. I refer to the issue of the deceased workers and their families. One man, Mr. Tommy Allen, whom the Tánaiste met, received his lump sum in recent weeks, one week before he sadly passed away. He is but one of 44 who are deceased. The terms of the settlement that was agreed and announced last December are such that the families of the deceased are to receive their entitlements. However, there seems to be a delay here also. I want answers on this.
In many cases the relatives of the deceased are in their 80s. Not only are they trying to cope with losing a beloved family member but also they do not have the wherewithal to keep chasing down what is rightfully theirs.
2:00 pm
Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for her remarks on the work that Mr. Liam Daly and his team are doing locally. I also acknowledge the work of Unite and the Labour Relations Commission. In addition, I know Deputy Conway has constantly raised this issue, if not daily then certainly weekly in recent years.
The mediated agreement for the former Waterford Crystal workers, which covers 1,774 scheme members, provides for the payment of a tax-free once-off lump sum of €1,200 for every year of scheme service, not exceeding 40 years, plus fortnightly payment of moneys in respect of pensionable service which is payable from the normal retirement date of the scheme members. To date, 1,574 lump sum payments have been authorised totalling €42.1 million. Work is ongoing in the Department of Social Protection to finalise payment of the remaining lump sums. This matter is being prioritised.
In tandem with this, officials of the Department are working on putting in place the administrative arrangements to facilitate the payment of moneys in respect of pensionable service. Given that these pension payments will be in place for decades to come, it is essential that appropriate operational and system arrangements are put in place for their ongoing maintenance and payment. I am advised that immediate action is required in respect of approximately 250 scheme members, or their spouses, or personal representatives in the case of deceased members, who have reached retirement age since the date of the wind up of the schemes in March 2009.
Of the cases requiring immediate attention, the Department is finalising arrangements to make actuarially calculated payments to the personal representatives of deceased scheme members who had not reached pension age, which comprise approximately 20 cases. It is anticipated that these payments will be made in late November or early December. Once paid, no further payments will arise in this small number of cases.
With regard to the arrangements for all other cases, officials of the Department have been in ongoing communication with officials of the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in addition to other State agencies such as the national shared services office, the Paymaster General pensions unit and PeoplePoint to explore the various options to facilitate the pension payments. The Department of Social Protection has engaged with other Departments to put in place the necessary administrative and payment functions as a matter of urgency and is seeking to include this within the normal payroll and pension payment arrangements. In this context, the shared services model is the preferred option for the payment and ongoing maintenance of pension payments.
Given the complexity involved in finalising the payment arrangements, I am not in a position to advise the Deputy as to a definitive completion date. Notwithstanding this, it must be emphasised that it is a matter of priority, both for the Tánaiste and the Department, and it is hoped that the payment of pensions will commence in the coming months. I am assured that every effort is being made to get the pension payments progressed as quickly as possible.
The Deputy has raised this issue not only with me but also with the Tánaiste. It is a matter of urgency and we will work tirelessly with other Departments to try to resolve any outstanding difficulties. The Deputy can rest assured that we will do everything we possibly can to ensure all those payments are put in place. It is important, however, that the payment arrangements are made on a sustainable model. Pension payments will be made over several decades, so it is important we get this right from the beginning. There must be no interruption of services as a result of the preparation work not being done properly for the commencement of those payments. I reassure the Deputy that in cases where payments are to be backdated, that will happen.
Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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I welcome that in his response the Minister of State has given a commitment that payments will be made in late November or early December to the relatives or personal representatives of deceased scheme members. There are approximately 250 such cases to be dealt with. However, the Minister of State can understand what it must be like for the remaining workers who have reached pension age. They cannot plan because they do not know when the money is going to come to them. How long is a piece of string? Are we talking about this calendar year or next year?
I appreciate that a lot of wheels have to be put in motion while trying to get people to work together. I believe this is a priority for the Department of Social Protection, but is it a priority for other Departments? That is my concern because these people's lives have been put on hold. They pressed a pause button when Waterford Crystal and the pension scheme became insolvent. Many households have suffered anguish and worry because they have not been able to plan. I could tell the Minister of State very personal stories of people trying to meet medical bills or putting off weddings. People have not been able to get on with their lives.
I am not prepared to be fobbed off and told it will happen in the coming months. These workers deserve to know what is happening. I realise the Tánaiste has worked very hard on this matter. As a local Deputy, however, I cannot go back down to Waterford this weekend without better information than that. I am sorry but I need answers.
Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Department and local officials have worked tirelessly on this matter. We are in constant contact and are having discussions to ensure these payments are made as quickly, efficiently and sustainably as possible. I would love to be able to tell Deputy Conway that it will be next week or next month, and so would all my departmental officials. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, however, many wheels must be put in motion in this regard. We also have to get it right. I can well understand how Waterford Crystal is branded into people's hearts because they thought they were in safe, secure, long-term jobs. They went into a job for life because that is what Waterford Crystal was.
The Irish Glass Bottle Company in my area was a sister firm to Waterford Crystal. I will not give history lessons because we both know about the foundations of both companies and how one spun from the other. Many of my friends also lost their jobs and faced redundancy but they had to fight for their entitlements.
I can certainly understand the frustration and annoyance that Waterford Crystal workers have experienced because the payments are not coming quickly enough. All I can say is that the Tánaiste, I and the Department will work tirelessly to try to ensure the payments are made as soon as possible. Any delay will be reflected in backdated payments. However, I am not going to mislead the Deputy or the workers and their families. As soon as we have precise, accurate information we will come back directly to the Deputy, Unite and the workers to let them know exactly the factual position. We will move to that position as quickly as we possibly can. I will certainly keep in weekly contact with Deputy Conway concerning this matter.
People who have lost their jobs in Waterford Crystal do not want to hear we are going to make that payment in the second week in December and then we do not hit the target. That would be unfair and unjust. As soon as we have that precise information I will ensure it is given to the families who are affected by this.
We will do it as quickly as we can. I know Department officials have a personal relationship with this, because they know the workers who have come in and out of the Intreo offices. In many cases, they know them on a personal basis. From the point of view of the Department of Social Protection, it is more than simply a payment. Having listened to officials, I detect there is virtually a mission to try to get this done as quickly, effectively and efficiently as possible. I can give Deputy Conway that commitment. I am sorry about the news and that I cannot give the Deputy a date in December or January, but we will do it as quickly as we possibly can.