Animal Health and Welfare Bill 2012...: 27 Mar 2013: Dáil debates (KildareStreet.com)

Dáil debates

Wednesday, 27 March 2013

Animal Health and Welfare Bill 2012 [Seanad]: Report Stage (Resumed)

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:In page 7, line 14, after “AMEND” to insert “THE DOG BREEDING ESTABLISHMENTS ACT 2010,”.- Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine

3:35 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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These amendments will allow a horizontal regime to supersede existing provisions for identification in the Control of Dogs Act 1986, the Dog Breeding Establishment Act 2010 and the Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011. I am proposing an amendment to Schedule 3 to provide that the Minister may introduce such regulations without the need for local authorities to specifically request as is currently the case.

Regarding amendments Nos. 1 and 2, as we need to amend the Dog Breeding Establishment Act 2010 and the Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011, it is necessary to include in the Long Title that amendment to those Acts as proposed.

Amendment No. 27 effectively bypasses section 16 of Dog Breeding Establishment Act 2010 in circumstances where a dog is identified in accordance with the animal health and welfare regulations. The purpose of this provision is to ensure the legislation is consistent and one measure does not contradict another.

In other words, I want to introduce a regulation which requires all dogs to be microchipped, a move I believe Deputies will welcome. It will take some time to put that regulation in place and we will have to go through a proper consultation process to ensure we get it right and make it as cost effective as possible. We also need to ensure the regulations linked with this Bill supersede what is already in the existing legislation, namely, the Dog Breeding Establishment Act 2010 and the Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011. Microchipping of dogs will apply across the board as it does already with dog-breeding establishments and the greyhound industry. We cannot have different standards applying depending on where a puppy happens to be born. We have learned a few lessons in the past several months with equine identity, passports and microchipping. I want a central database to know how many dogs there are in the country. Accordingly, if there is a case of a stray dog, or one which has suffered cruelty or was abandoned, we can then establish who owned the dog and take appropriate action.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am always a little wary of Report Stage amendments because I got caught out badly myself by introducing an amendment on Report Stage which had unintended consequences. What is the current arrangement for the identification of dogs?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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At the moment there is no legal requirement for an owner to have a dog microchipped. We have two organisations, the Dogs Trust-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I must point out that on Report Stage each speaker has the right to speak twice while the mover of the amendment has the right to speak three times. I would like to keep this order and ask that the Minister finish his contribution.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Section 16(1) of the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010 states:

It shall be unlawful for the operator of a dog breeding establishment to keep at that establishment a dog that is over 8 weeks old and that is not implanted with a microchip.

While this requirement applies just to dog-breeding establishments, we are proposing through regulation that all dogs will be required to be microchipped.

3:40 pm

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty with this amendment, especially because it is only involves a regulation making power. Is that correct? Whenever the Minister comes to make this regulation, will he ensure it will be published and debated at the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine, rather than the usual procedure used in dealing with a draft regulation, in case there are unintended consequences? Everyone should have a chance to make an input; that is all I ask.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Will this provision apply retrospectively? Will everyone with a dog in the country have to have it micro-chipped? If anyone is found not to be in compliance, what will be the consequences?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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To reply to the first question, I intend to bring the regulation to the committee. We have several codes of conduct and regulations to agree to relating to fur farming, the digging out of animals and the micro-chipping of dogs. We will also have an entirely new and improved approach towards equine identification also. I intend to bring these issues to the committee in order that we can go through them and iron out concerns people may have.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan asked about retrospection. I am keen to see all dogs micro-chipped, but we have to have a reasonable timeframe for people to do this. I understand the United Kingdom is setting a date of either 2016 or 2017 for all dogs to be micro-chipped. We must figure out how best to ensure people will be able to afford to do this. For example, we will discuss the matter with the Veterinary Council of Ireland to determine whether veterinary surgeons throughout the country will do this work at cost. I gather that if they were to do so, it might cost approximately €7.50 to have a dog micro-chipped, as opposed to €40 or €50, if one were to pay the cost of expertise and so on. However, in doing it in that way veterinary surgeons would be bring in far more clients to their practices and it would make sense for them to do so. We need to work this out with veterinary practitioners and other interested groups. We will have a consultation process before we finalise any regulation and it will involve a discussion at the committee.

Amendment agreed to.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Amendment No. 2 has already been discussed with amendment No. 1.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 2:

In page 7, line 15, after “1993” to insert “AND THE WELFARE OF GREYHOUNDS ACT 2011”.

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 3:

In page 9, line 17, to delete “on the island of Ireland” and substitute “in the State”.

Following legal advice it was deemed more correct to make it clear that the Bill is limited to those animals in the State.

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 4:

In page 9, line 26, after “a” to insert the following:

“licence, identity document or passport issued in respect of an animal,”.

This amendment relates to definitions. A discussion in my Department has identified the need for a slight expansion of the definition of records to specify that documents such as animal passports or identity documents should be included.

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 5:

In page 11, to delete lines 14 to 23 and substitute the following:“(b) all buildings, gates, fences, hedges, boundary walls and other structures used to contain the animal are constructed and maintained in a manner that minimises—
(i) the risk that the animal will stray,

(ii) the risk, or spread, of disease onto or from the land or premises on which the animal is kept, and

(iii) the risk that the animal will damage the flora and fauna of the surrounding environment where the animal is contained,

having regard to shared boundaries or commonage.”.

This is a minor formatting amendment consequential on acceptance of Deputy Thomas Pringle's amendment on Committee Stage. We are seeking to provide for the risk that an animal will damage the flora or fauna of a surrounding environment. Such lists follow a precise format with commas, full stops and so forth and we must ensure the format is followed. The term "and" should occur between the second last and last entry. When the list consisted of two items the word "and" was placed between them, but given the addition of a third item, it must be moved to between the second and third item.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It took me ten minutes last night to figure out what the amendment was about.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I realise it is a somewhat farcical explanation, but it is accurate and takes account of Deputy Thomas Pringle's amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Amendments Nos. 6 and 12 are related and will be discussed together.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 6:

In page 12, to delete lines 26 to 28 and substitute the following:

“(5) This section does not apply to anything done under or in accordance with—(a) the Animal Remedies Act 1993,

(b) the Irish Medicines Board Act 1995, or

(c) the European Union (Protection of Animals used for Scientific Purposes) Regulations 2012 (S.I. No. 543 of 2012).”.

My Department became aware late last year that the Minister for Health had introduced a new statutory instrument amending the Irish Medicines Board Act 1995. This reflected recent changes in the law at EU level relating to the replacement of the Cruelty to Animals Act 1876 by the European Union (Protection of Animals Used for Scientific Purposes) Regulations 2012. Therefore, we need to keep the references in this legislation up to date. Amendment No. 12 is similar to amendment No. 6 and reflects the replacement of the Cruelty to Animals Act 1876 by SI No. 543 of 2012, the European Union (Protection of Animals Used for Scientific Purposes) Regulations 2012. In other words, the law changed while the Bill was being considered and we have reflected this in the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If amendment No. 7 is agreed to, amendment No. 8 cannot be moved.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 7:

In page 13, to delete lines 8 to 28 and substitute the following:“11.—(1) A person who has a protected animal in his or her possession or under his or her control shall, having regard to the animal’s nature, type, species, breed, development, adaptation, domestication, physiological and behavioural needs and environment, and in accordance with established experience and scientific knowledge, take all necessary steps to ensure that—
(a) the animal is kept and treated in a manner that—
(i) safeguards the health and welfare of the animal, and

(ii) does not threaten the health or welfare of the animal or another animal,

and
(b) all buildings, gates, fences, hedges, boundary walls and other structures used to contain the animal are constructed and maintained in a manner so that they do not cause injury or unnecessary suffering to the animal.”.

This section sets out several basic and general principles relating to the duty of welfare owed to an animal by its owner or carer. The detailed discussion on Committee Stage was helpful, given the need for precision not only in the wording used but also in the ordering. While the points were certainly open to debate and it is perhaps unlikely that owners of more wilful species such as cats would be prosecuted for the behaviour of such animals because they are considered ungovernable - perhaps that is a questionable term - I took the view that there was strong enough merit in the points made by Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív to persuade me to reorganise the section to ensure the terminology relating to "having regard to the animal's nature" and so on was clarified to make it clear that this proviso applied to the section as a whole. While the amendment does not change the meaning or substance of this important provision, it removes any ambiguity. We held a long discussion on the matter on Committee Stage. I do not propose to accept Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív's amendment on the topic because while it sets out to solve the same problem, it would weaken rather than qualify the basic duty of care on an animal owner. Therefore, it would have greater scope to be misused by unscrupulous persons. In other words, I have accommodated the Deputy's concerns in my amendment, while at the same time maintaining the strength of this important section in making clear the responsibility of an owner towards his or her animals.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is fair to say the Minister has gone to considerable lengths to take on board points made on Committee Stage when there was substance behind them. I will withdraw amendment No. 8 and accept the Minister's amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 8 not moved.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I move amendment No. 9:

In page 14, between lines 2 and 3, to insert the following:“(2) A person shall be guilty of an offence if he keeps animals solely or primarily—
(a) for slaughter (whether by himself or another) for the value of their fur, or

(b) for breeding progeny for such slaughter including keeping animals or (as the case may be) breeding them for sale for slaughter for the value of their fur.
(3) This Act requires:
(a) the mandatory registration of current fur farmers, owners of farms used for fur farming,

(b) the Minister to appoint an official to make mandatory inspections on a regular basis of fur farming establishments to inspect the conditions of fur farms and ensure that humane practices are used according to the killing and eradication of animals,

(c) that only certified chemicals and processes be used to kill and eradicate animals used for the purposes of fur and ones which are environmentally friendly and do not risk contamination, pollution or adverse effects on the surrounding natural environment.”.

We debated this issue on Committee Stage. There are two aspects to it, the first of which relates to fur farming per se. Many of us have made known our views and how opposed we are to fur farming. At this stage many countries in Europe have banned fur farming, the latest being the Netherlands, the third largest fur producer after China and Denmark.

We also see a phasing out of fur farming in other countries and that would have a been a sensible approach to take here.

I also discussed before the way animals are gassed. The second part of my amendment relates to the welfare of the mink. The Minister says he wants greater regulation, so fur farming will not be banned in this Bill. Therefore, there is a need for much stronger controls over how the mink are held and how they are gassed. As I pointed out on Committee Stage, there are serious issues for the environment. Fur has a higher impact in respect of 17 of the 18 environmental themes, including climate change and toxic emissions. The climate change impact of 1 kg of mink fur is five times greater than that of the highest scoring textile wool, owing to the feeding requirements and the nitrous oxide emissions from mink manure.

There are two issues in question here. I would love to see fur farming banned and do not understand why we must retain it in this day and age. We could follow the good example of other countries in Europe and even if we do not ban it outright, consider phasing it out. In the meantime, we must show more concern for the welfare of the mink while they are being kept in captivity and about the way they are gassed. There is also an issue with regard to mink escaping from captivity and damaging bird life in their area.

3:50 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We had a good discussion on this on Committee Stage and while I am trying to accommodate people's concerns, there are some things we cannot do. Deputy O'Sullivan wants fur farming banned, but what I propose to do is to introduce a new code of conduct and a new inspection and licensing regime in order to reassure people that within the boundaries of farming, the welfare of the animals is protected. This goes for matters such as the density of animal numbers in cages and the way in which they are killed. I will bring that code before a committee and we will be able to discuss it. However, I cannot agree with the Deputy that we should simply ban fur farming. We will introduce a tight code of conduct and a new licensing regime and if it is necessary to introduce regulations, we will do that. However, let us wait and see how the code works.

This is a practice that is relatively small in Ireland and there are only four or five fur farms here. I want to ensure that the fur farming that takes place here is of the highest standard. If at some point in the future, we need to review that because of welfare standards or concerns, we can do that. However, we have taken a policy decision not to do that at this stage, but to focus on ensuring that welfare concerns are properly attended to.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I support Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment. I appreciate the point made by the Minister that he will look at this issue in the form of a code of conduct, but the problem for us is that what we are dealing with currently is an Animal Health and Welfare Bill where this practice, which is inherently cruel and inhumane, will be allowed to continue, while we are expected to buy into a promise of regulation and improvement.

Given the thorough knowledge the Minister has of his brief, I am sure we will be given regulations and that we will have an improvement on what exists now. The problem is that we have no input into that process. However, we have an input into this Bill. In that sense, the moving of this amendment is appropriate. Fur farming is a small scale practice here and is not of major significance. Often, the argument is put forward that there are serious economic considerations with regard to the need to practise this barbarity. That is not the case here as we are talking about just five registered mink farms, yet in 2006 approximately 170,000 mink were being killed here and 300 foxes.

There are issues with regard to the type of regulations the Minister intends to introduce. In Germany, there have been substantial improvements in regulations and while it has not banned the practice of fur farming, it has upgraded significantly the quality of life of mink. That is somewhat of a contradiction as mink do not have much of a quality of life, but at least they are being kept in better cages and are given some form of toys, better food and wire mesh floors have been banned. We have no such guarantees with regard to the issues here or in terms of the manner by which the animals will be killed. I would prefer an outright ban on fur farming as that is the only choice that is compatible with animal health and welfare, because the idea of keeping the practice of keeping and rearing animals just for their fur has no logical basis.

While the Minister said previously that there are currently no foxes being farmed in Ireland for their fur, there is nothing in the legislation which prevents this from happening in the future. We need more and this amendment gives us more and that is the reason I support it.

Patrick Nulty (Dublin West, Labour)
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I too support Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment. The Minister has admitted that fur farming is a very small operation here. This begs the question why we do not seize the opportunity today to put an end to this barbaric practice. This barbaric practice does not represent the future of rural economic life here. Fur farming is on the decline, is unnecessary, deliberately cruel, wrong and profoundly unnecessary. There is no need or justification for it. I am very interested in hearing what the Minister has to say on this. Why does he not take the opportunity today to be the Minister who brought in a ban on fur farming? Why does he not accept Deputy O'Sullivan's amendment and do a good day's work in the House?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I hope I will do a good day's work in the House. It is true there are only five fur farms. However, it is not true to say this practice is deliberately cruel. This is a farming practice and like poultry or some pig farming, it is an intensive practice. I am not overly supportive of the industry, but I do not feel I should ban it. Quite a number of people here make a living from work linked to the five existing farms. If we banned fur farming, we would have to compensate these people.

I have thought about this issue and considered banning fur farming, but on balance I believe better regulation is a fairer approach to take for the people in the industry. As legislators, we must ensure we apply best practice so as to ensure welfare considerations are focused and that we put a code of conduct and licensing system in place that will reflect that. If this code and system make the industry uncompetitive, so be it. I am slow to ban outright something that I am personally not that comfortable with, but that is far different from deciding to ban something. I believe this industry has a right to survive and deserves a policy response that allows it do that. However, I have a responsibility to ensure that within that, we impose welfare standards within reason on the industry. We will do and will bring the code of conduct to committee where I suspect the Deputy will have an input into it. The Deputy should wait and see what we do in that regard.

One of the first things I did when I became Minister was to ask for a report on fur farming. I received that report and it makes a series of recommendations. Some Deputies have probably read the report, but the recommendations may not go far enough for them. It is a step in the right direction and we will now move ahead to put a code of conduct in place. Let us see then in five years' time where we are with this industry.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I must take issue with the Minister's statement that fur farming is not cruel. It is cruel, because the animals are gassed with either carbon dioxide -----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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What I said is that it is not deliberately cruel. People do not set out deliberately to be cruel.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I know, but if animals are to be gassed with carbon dioxide, that is cruel.

It has been scientifically proven that cruelty and pain are involved for these mink. The Irish Wildlife Trust's report on mink farms, which was covered on television some time ago, pointed out the dreadful conditions that exist in such farms. I accept that the Minister has said he does not intend to ban this industry outright, but I would have expected him to consider phasing it out as other countries are doing.

4:00 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There are other countries that are not doing that. This is a policy choice. We have decided to ensure Ireland acts as an international benchmark in prioritising welfare standards. We will ensure the standards in this industry are as high as the standards in any other country, if not higher. We will do that through a code of practice and a licensing system. That is the approach we have decided to take. There are recommendations and European standards relating to how animals should be killed. It is important to emphasise that there is no farming system that does not involve some pain when animals are slaughtered at the end of their lifetimes. I do not know whether the Deputy has ever visited a slaughterhouse at which poultry, pigs, sheep or cattle are killed. This is part of farming. We need to apply standards that ensure the suffering of these animals is minimised at the time of death, just as we have done in the case of other farmed animals. We will try to do that through the code of conduct on how animals are killed at the end of their lifetimes.

Amendment put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 106.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Maureen O'Sullivan and Clare Daly; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Tá

Níl

Amendment declared lost.

4:05 pm

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 10:

In page 14, to delete lines 3 to 10.

Basically, I consider that the provisions I want deleted are already covered in the Bill and that the particular provision is archaic. It was taken from an older Bill but I do not know why we are bringing it into this Bill. I have made the point before and, even at this late stage, I ask the Minister to reconsider this provision. It is totally superfluous, the wording is totally archaic and it has no place in modern legislation.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I accept that. I will accept the amendment.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. Again, he has been very reasonable in his approach.

Amendment agreed to.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Amendments Nos. 11 and 41 are related and will be discussed together.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 11:

In page 14, line 34, before “that” to insert the following:“, having recorded and taken into account the explanation given by the person responsible for the animal,”.

There was some concern about the powers being given to officers in this respect. It was felt that if the explanation had to be recorded by the authorised officer, at least it would be recorded at the time. This would put an extra onus on the official taking action not to act in a capricious way because the explanation of the owner of the animal would be taken there and then, rather than having a post factum argument. That is the thrust of the amendment.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not propose to accept the amendment. I can understand what the Deputy is getting at, namely, if an authorised officer is to require somebody to stop what they are doing because the officer has a concern there may be a welfare implication, the person who is supposedly offending should have an opportunity to give an explanation.

The problem with it is that it would weaken the power of authorised officers. If one reads the section of the Bill which it is proposed to amend, it states:

An authorised officer who has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is offending against this section, in relation to an animal, may require the person to immediately desist from so offending, and, if necessary, to take such action as the officer may require in the interests of the health and welfare of the animal.

The purpose is to prioritise the protection of the welfare of the animal. If the authorised officer has reasonable grounds for believing a person is offending, he or she has to be able to take action, in some cases quickly. In keeping with the training of authorised officers in a code of standard to which they must operate, in the vast majority of cases it will be the case that an authorised officer will have a conversation with somebody who may be committing an offence before action is taken. However, there are certain circumstances where there is no need for an explanation and where seeking an explanation would simply be wasting time. We must ensure people do not adopt delaying tactics by giving long and detailed explanations to which the authorised officer would have to listen if this amendment was accepted. In certain circumstances an authorised officer must have the power to act quickly, decisively and in the interests of the animal or animals concerned, regardless of whether they are on the back of a trailer coming off a ship, in a farmyard or garage where dog fighting could be happening. I understand the point the Deputy is making, but the amendment would weakens the section. Therefore, I do not propose to accept it.

Amendment put and declared lost.

4:15 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 12:

In page 15, to delete lines 8 and 9 and substitute the following:"(11) This section does not apply to—
(a) the destruction of an animal in an appropriate and humane manner, or

(b) anything done under and in accordance with any of the enactments or Regulations mentioned in section 10(5)*.".

Amendment agreed to.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 are related and may be discussed together.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I move amendment No. 13:

In page 15, to delete lines 15 to 17.

This is probably the most important amendment we have tabled to the Bill and the one that has received the most attention. That such a comprehensive animal health and welfare Bill is being put through the House today is a significant step forward. All of us agree that many of its provisions represent a substantial step forward in protecting animal welfare in the State. Against this backdrop, that hare coursing is excluded from the provisions of the Bill is a gaping anomaly and contradiction. In essence, we are recognising that the practice is inherently cruel but allowing it to continue.

Ireland is one of the last remaining countries to allow hare coursing to take place. It has been banned in England, Scotland, Wales and, most recently, Northern Ireland. It is something a majority of Irish citizens in opinion polls and I consistently believe is an outdated practice with no part to play in modern Ireland. This is not just an opinion; it has been verified by what is taking place on the ground where the level of participation in coursing clubs has been declining dramatically in recent years. Each season the numbers involved are growing smaller. Census figures released in 1935 revealed that there were over 219 coursing clubs in Ireland. Today there are less than 90 and the figure is declining. It is a practice engaged in in about ten counties. The only area in Dublin in which it is engaged in is my constituency.

Information circulated to all Deputies which shows that a very successful drag coursing event took place negates the traditional argument that people who love greyhounds will not have a chance to exercise their dogs and allow them to compete. That is nonsense. We do not need to allow hare coursing to continue for dogs to be exercised or compete. Successful drag coursing events held in Ireland prove this and negate that argument. The Minister must take this on board. Not allowing this barbarity to continue and replacing it with drag coursing would do far more for the tourism industry.

During the years we have heard many ridiculous arguments justifying hare coursing, all of which can be defeated. We hear such nonsense that coursing clubs look after and protect hares. Let us be clear: hares are snatched from their environment and kept to be chased by dogs. They sustain massive injuries that I will not read into the record because we have done so before. That the organisers do not plan for deaths to occur which are an unfortunate by-product is not a reason to allow it to continue.

I do not accept the argument that hare coursing is a traditional sport in Ireland. It was first introduced by British garrisons. The fact that something is traditional does not mean it is acceptable. Standards in society change and what was the norm can become unacceptable as time passes. In times past there were freak shows at which people with disabilities and those who looked different were paraded in the name of entertainment. The holding of such events today would be reprehensible. Similarly, activities involving wanton cruelty such as cock fighting and bear baiting which passed for sport 100 years ago would not be deemed acceptable by anybody today. All of the evidence shows that this is not a natural activity for hares which do not enjoy being chased. They are gentle animals which are under threat and whose numbers are in decline as a result of this activity. It is not acceptable that it should continue. Successive opinion polls show this is not a minority viewpoint.

I am surprised that the Minister has continued to allow this cruel practice and excluded it from the provisions of the legislation because it is the one gaping anomaly that most citizens do not accept. Even at this late stage, I appeal to him to accept our amendment and allow us and coursing clubs to move on to develop the activity mentioned which involves no cruelty. Many people who consciously stay away might then return. We do not see this as in any way an attack on the rural way of life. The majority of people living in rural areas oppose hare coursing. I therefore ask the Minister to support the amendment.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I am appalled that in the previous vote only 14 of the 120 Members in this Chamber today voted in favour of banning fur farming. When it became known in animal welfare circles that the Minister was working on this Bill, there was a great sense that finally we were going to do the right thing and that cruel practices such as hare coursing, the gassing of mink and the culling of badgers would finally be eradicated.

I want to go back to the beginning of the Bill. In the Long Title, on page seven, it is definitely stated that the aim of the Bill is to prevent cruelty to animals. Under Part 3, which is entitled "Animal Welfare", on page 13, it is stated that a person who is in possession of a protected animal must ensure that the animal is treated in a manner that safeguards the health and welfare of the animal and does not threaten the health or welfare of the animal or another animal. Nobody can tell me that coursing is the sort of activity in which the welfare of the animal is not at stake and in which there is no cruelty.

I refer to an interesting quotation from a German philosopher, Immanuel Kant: "He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." Irish men are not coming across very well when we see the way in which animals are being treated in this country. I do not think it is doing our international reputation any good to be one of three countries that continue to allow live coursing. I understand that The Gathering has also removed hunting from its website. This was a golden opportunity to get rid of hare coursing. It is obvious that the majority of people in this country totally oppose it. I know that Deputies are annoyed by the volume of e-mails they receive on this matter, but this shows the extent of the support for putting a ban on coursing.

Damage is being done to greyhounds, who are gentle animals. They are being deliberately blooded and trained to do something that is against their nature. We know also of the damage to hares in the way they are netted, housed and used. There is also an increasing use of rabbits. Greyhounds have suffered injuries because they become frustrated with wearing the muzzle. As I said on Committee Stage, I do not advocate that muzzles should not be used. However, it is unnatural for the greyhound.

The Minister referred on Committee Stage to employment in the coursing industry. However, employment can be supported if drag coursing is introduced. Like Deputy Daly, I hope the Minister can consider its introduction. To have coursing events monitored by coursing clubs is not an adequate supervision and inspection system. The hares are injured during coursing. They are mauled and some of them have been killed either during or after the coursing. The hare is a sub-species of the mountain hare. There could be issues with regard to the survival of the species, which may become endangered.

My predecessor, the late Tony Gregory, tried to bring in a ban on coursing in the early 1990s but was unsuccessful. More than 30 years later, we are in the same situation. This is a cruel practice. If the Minister is concerned about animal welfare he will reconsider. Neither Deputy Daly nor I will give up the fight on this one.

4:25 pm

Patrick Nulty (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am happy to support this amendment. We had a discussion about language when dealing with the previous amendment. However, I do not think there can be much debate about this amendment. Hare coursing is deliberately cruel and unnecessary. As Deputy O'Sullivan has outlined, issues of employment can be addressed in other ways, such as by the use of drag coursing. It sticks out like a sore thumb in this Bill that the opportunity to ban coursing is not being seized. I wonder why it is not being seized. It is very ironic that in our vote on the previous amendment, Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin all stood shoulder to shoulder. Not since before 1918 have the nationalist parties stood together so much to oppose progressive measures towards achieving animal rights. This is an opportunity for the Minister to redeem himself. I acknowledge the positive elements of this Bill but this provision is a significant anomaly. In failing to ban hare coursing we have failed to seize political responsibility and responsibility for the environment in which we all live on this island. It is a completely barbaric, unnecessary and unacceptable practice. It certainly does not represent the future of Irish economic and rural development. We should ban it outright today. I support the amendment.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I support the Minister and I rise to speak against this amendment. I come from a county with a proud coursing record and with long-established coursing clubs. Coursing is part of our heritage and our culture. It is fine to hear Deputies saying that any jobs lost can be replaced in other ways. It is difficult to create employment in these difficult times. The employment provided by the coursing and greyhound industry in Tipperary is indigenous employment, of the people, by the people. It is employment created by the money and initiative of the people themselves. It is created by their own kennels and by investment in breeding dogs. They nurture the greyhounds and the greyhound industry.

We had a very successful festival in Clonmel in February. On numerous occasions I have invited Deputy Clare Daly and Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan to come down to observe the festival. However, there are none so blind as those who will not see. I ask them to come down to see how humane coursing has become and how valuable the industry is to the county and to tourism. Only today I learned that hunting has been taken off the website for The Gathering. If that is the case, it is more the pity, is mór an trua é. It is part of our nature to hunt and fish and do coursing.

I was shocked to hear Deputy O'Sullivan say she was appalled at the result of the previous vote. Thankfully, we live in a democracy and we are entitled to vote. If, as has been claimed by my two colleagues, opinion polls have recorded a demand for the banning of coursing, why have those people not elected 100 Deputies to this House?

Deputy O'Sullivan referred to the e-mails sent to Deputies. Those e-mails are part of a concerted, organised and contrived campaign - a silly campaign, in my view. These are the same people who came to a coursing meeting in Clonmel a couple of years ago and cut the wire of the compound holding the hares. The hares ran out onto the motorway and were slaughtered. This was done in the name of animal rights. They were slaughtered and pulverised into the surface of the motorway. Those people were not thinking about the welfare of those animals. Some years ago, the same people put broken glass on the greyhound track. These are the people who talk about minding the delicate greyhounds. That glass was inserted into the track in order to do unmerciful damage to the feet of the greyhounds. These people need to get real and to stop the bully tactics. We are entitled to our indigenous industry. We are entitled to carry out and to participate in our sports, and more so when it is providing employment. The same applies to hunting. Anyone with a nag, a foal or a mare needs a stable, tackle, a horse box and the means to pull it. They will need to avail of veterinary services. We are generating an industry and we should be allowed to continue. If it does not suit the people in the Pale, that is fine. These people say that coursing was supposed to have been introduced into the garrison towns. If that is so, I say tough; it is something that we adopted. Everything British is not bad. People have got lots of enjoyment out of coursing and lots of jobs have been created out of it. It is an industry worth at least €6 million to the town of Clonmel. I invited the Minister to come to Clonmel but he was unable to come this year. His late colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Shane McEntee, God rest him, came to Clonmel last year. We cannot all live in glasshouses and say that this can be stopped. These are the same people who are looking for jobs here and jobs there. It is not so easy to create jobs. We used to have a flourishing greyhound industry in south Tipperary but it is not half as flourishing now. However, there is still a good residue of people employed and a good residue of spending around this industry. Let us accept the democratic will and the vote. I do not know what will be the result of the next vote; I can only account for my own vote and account for my own people in Tipperary. Some people were horrified because only 14 people voted against the closing of fur factories, which have created valuable employment in certain parts of the country. Let us get real. We cannot on one hand scream for more jobs and more industry while on the other hand banish an indigenous industry that is of the people, by the people and for the people. If we had more of that, we would not have half the unemployment we have.

People are entitled to make and continue their efforts, but it sticks in my craw when they start moaning that only 14 voted one way while 100 voted the other. That is where I have the problem. Is it a democracy or not? Are we going to be led by so-called opinion polls which overwhelmingly say that coursing should be banned? Why is that not reflected at the ballot box?

We have to deal with this in the real world. Goodness knows, the people involved are burdened enough and we should allow them to enjoy their sport. If they want to breed and care in every way for their greyhounds and horses and to generate an industry and jobs for themselves and their families, are we going to stop them because some idealist says this is cruel? I have said it before and hate to revert to it, but some of the people who are anti-blood-sports are totally pro-abortion. I cannot get it into my little head how anyone can be of that frame of mind. That debate is coming down the tracks. They are unashamedly pro-abortion and anti-blood-sports. I rest my case.

4:35 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I recognise that there are strong views on this issue. For some, hare coursing is an unacceptably cruel practice. For others, it is not. It is part of parish and club life and their upbringing with greyhounds and so on. There is a balance I must strike as a Minister in the Bill.

It is important to record, for people who have never been to a coursing meeting - as I have not - that veterinary staff from my Department and rangers from the National Parks and Wildlife Service carry out random monitoring inspections during the coursing season to verify compliance with licences and rules governing animal welfare. Everybody - even those who would like coursing to be banned - will recognise that over the last ten years, we have moved significantly towards clearer rules and regulations on adherence to animal welfare standards, linking those to the licensing of hare coursing. As a further control, a monitoring committee on coursing was established during the 1993-94 coursing season, comprised of officials from my Department and representatives from the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the Irish Coursing Club, to monitor developments in coursing. The situation is therefore kept under constant review to ensure that coursing is run in a controlled and responsible manner in the interests of hares and greyhounds alike.

Some people assume there is a significant mortality rate among hares used for coursing. It is important to record that a very high proportion of hares captured for coursing are returned to the wild. During the 2011-12 season, 97.3% of hares caught for coursing were returned to the wild.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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These are the facts. That is not to say I am attempting to convince Deputies who are adamant that coursing should be banned. While I can understand their concerns, I must legislate in a balanced and fair way. We are doing that, and I cannot accept the amendments proposed by Deputy Clare Daly.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister makes the point that hare coursing is part of people's upbringing and club history, etc. Our point is that the success of the greyhound industry and the continuance of coursing clubs do not depend on killing, hunting or maiming hares. It is simply not the case. People who want to continue with these clubs and to exercise their dogs, which many of them love, do not require thousands of hares to be netted, torn from the countryside, used as live lures for greyhounds, kept in captivity for weeks, trained to run up a field and then released for pairs of dogs to chase. The fact that some hares are only maimed, receive a broken leg or experience trauma before being released is not really a justification.

As a result of attitude changes and campaigning efforts by animal rights and welfare activists, changes in this area were made, not least because of the efforts of the former Deputy Tony Gregory and some of our other predecessors. The fact that dogs are now muzzled has obviously reduced deaths, but it has not eliminated them. While it is true that veterinarians and National Parks and Wildlife Service staff make checks, I put it to the Minister that against the backdrop of the requirements the Bill imposes to monitor and care for other animals, it would be better not to waste the time of officials in attending hare coursing events. They should concentrate on meaningful jobs which really protect the welfare of animals in different circumstances.

While it may be true that not every hare who participates in coursing dies, no coursing event takes place which does not see the death of a hare. We have a catalogue released under the Freedom of Information Act by the National Parks and Wildlife Service which lists instances of death and injury. We could be here all day listing them. For example, in Clarecastle and Ennis in 2011 and early 2012, five hares were hit, three of whom died in the escape after coursing. On day 2, seven hares were hit, two killed and four injured. There were eight fatalities. In Wexford, 12 hares were found to be unfit for coursing. Of the 86 hares captured, a number were found to be missing. In Thurles, ten hares were hit, two were injured and two died.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Deputy is over time.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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There is no time limit for this.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It is two minutes for this round.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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There is no time limit on this.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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On the first round there is no limit.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Absolutely not. Since when? There is no guillotine on this. We have two opportunities to speak.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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All speakers may speak twice on each amendment or group of amendments. The second contribution shall not exceed two minutes. That is the Standing Order.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Ceann Comhairle said earlier that movers of amendments could speak three times.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Yes. Movers can speak again.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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So, if I stop now, I can finish my points the next time. I would have done it in one go.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Most courses only take 30 seconds.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Deputy Daly can come in on the next round.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I can come in on the next round as well. I will just finish my point in literally two seconds. Officials are tied up on this issue. We would be quite happy to leave Deputy Mattie McGrath in Thurles or Clonmel if he were only damaging himself and his neighbours and they were only damaging each other. Sadly, the activity does not do that. There must be a voice to speak out on that.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I will not take two minutes as there is no point in repeating the figures Deputy Clare Daly was starting to give. However, one cannot say that the previous vote and the votes that will take place on these amendments represent a victory for democracy. It is a victory for a party system, vested interests of which want to maintain these particular industries.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I have no whip.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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It is not democratic. I am totally committed to democracy, but that was not an exercise in it.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What else was it?

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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We are talking here about deliberate cruelty. I am not against what happens in the countryside in the natural course of things with animals. With a name like O'Sullivan, I have very strong rural connections. While I can accept what happens as part of the natural order in the countryside, this is deliberate cruelty. One almost feels like saying that if a hare survives once, he should receive a big "X" on his back so that he does not have to face the greyhounds in the ring the next time. It is a cruel practice and we will keep going on it.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We had a long discussion on this on Committee Stage.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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There was no mention of jobs.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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My views are well known. I can understand the alternative view, which has been stated well by Deputies. We are taking a balanced approach and do not propose to ban hare coursing in this legislation.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Deputy Daly has unlimited speaking time in reply.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I have unlimited time now? For heaven's sake. If the Acting Chairman had allowed me to speak the first time, I would not have come back in.

Seán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Deputy Daly is the mover of the amendment and is replying. That is what the Standing Order says.

4:45 pm

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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There are hugely important issues here. The point about the previous vote is that there is no way only 14 Deputies are opposed to fur farming. The next vote result will be similar. We know from speaking to Deputies from all parties who voted against our amendment that it is not their personal viewpoint.

I doubt many people choose to vote for a candidate based on attitudes to hare coursing or general animal welfare issues. It may be a factor for some people but it is not the most decisive factor for others. It is not an argument that stands up. Only a small number of people participate in the activity. We are all for individual freedoms and supporting individual rights. It would be fine if no harm was being done, but harm is being done. This is deliberate and barbaric cruelty that serves no purpose and does not offer a single job. Deputy Mattie McGrath may not have heard correctly because we did not say jobs would be lost as a result of this. No scientific evidence has been put forward to say a ban on hare coursing will diminish the jobs in the area. A more valid argument is that the more humane and acceptable alternative, drag coursing, could lead to more jobs being created in the industry. The majority of counties may begin to look at it if it is so great. I do not think it will happen but there is no evidence that jobs will be affected in this way.

I do not accept that this is about idealism. It is about a civilised society moving on and recognising that it is unacceptable that inherently cruel practices, which do not occur in the wild or naturally, are put forward in the name of sport and entertainment. Assuming the Minister does not hear our pleas this time, we will return with new Private Members' Bill and other legislation in the lifetime of the Government. There is no way we can allow this to continue.

Question put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 102; Níl, 13.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Maureen O'Sullivan and Clare Daly.

Tá

Níl

Question declared carried.

Amendment declared lost.

4:55 pm

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I move amendment No. 14:

In page 17, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:"(a) the use of hares,

(b) the use of canines for the hunting of any animal or the use of canines to extract wild animals that have gone to ground,

(c) the digging out of any wild animal gone to ground,

(d) the use of ferrets for the hunting of an animal,

(e) the culling of badgers,

(f) the use of wild animals in circus performances.".

Amendment put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 108.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Maureen O'Sullivan and Clare Daly; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Tá

Níl

Amendment declared lost.

5:00 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 15:

In page 18, between lines 38 and 39, to insert the following:“(12) The restriction contained in subsection (1)(e) does not prevent the training of an animal, for the purpose of domesticating the animal and making it safe to manage by persons competent to train that animal, provided that—
(a) unnecessary suffering is not thereby caused to the animal, and

(b) any activity involved in the training of the animal is not prohibited by animal health and welfare regulations.”.

I hope the Deputies will not be divided on this amendment. This is referred to in my Department as the horse-whisperer amendment. There has been some concern over the section of the Bill to which it pertains. I have had it re-examined and am happy this provision will not be used as a basis for prosecutions against either farmers or educators, no matter how misguided or ill-informed future regulators may be.

It was suggested that we add a clause making it clear that normal farming practices are not covered by the section. Aside from the difficulty with defining "normal farming practices", there is another problem in that if we specified that this concept was not covered, we would need to allow for every other legitimate activity that might involve animals, including those of riding schools, sports events and even walking the dog. Obviously, the list would never be complete and would be pointless. However, I am proposing a slight amendment in regard to the roping of horses. As currently worded, performances involving this activity are banned whether they cause suffering or not. However, there are some specialists in this area who carry out this activity in a very humane and non-coercive fashion. My amendment proposes to allow such activity were no unnecessary suffering is caused. That is made quite clear in the amendment and I hope it will be accepted by the Deputies opposite.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I accept the amendment. It is hard to accept that the Minister has tabled this amendment, which is about trying to eliminate unnecessary suffering, when the majority of Members have just voted for various actions that cause untold suffering to animals.

Amendment agreed to.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Amendments Nos. 16 and 42 are related and are to be discussed together.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 16:

In page 20, to delete lines 11 to 14 and substitute the following:“(3) The owner, occupier or person in charge of land on which a poison or a substance containing a poison is laid shall give—
(a) at least 7 days’ notice in writing in advance of the laying of the poison or substance, or

(b) if the poison or substance is being laid as part of a programme for the control of vermin in crops, at least 7 days’ notice in writing in advance of the commencement of the programme accompanied by details of when it is proposed to lay the poison or substance, to the local authority for the functional area in which the land is situated.”.

This amendment is intended to address an issue raised by Deputy Tom Barry about poison laid as part of a programme. The amendment provides that only a single notice need be lodged with the council or local authority. This can apply for up to a year. This was a sensible suggestion to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy and I am happy to accept it. Amendment No. 42 updates section 58, which contains a reference to an offence under section 18. Due to amendments to section 18, this should refer to section 18(5) and not section 18(7). Amendment No. 42 is essentially a consequence of amendment No. 16.

Essentially, this is about taking a pragmatic and sensible approach to poison so that farmers do not have to go through the process of applying for a permit to lay poison each time they wish do so. That would not have been practical in terms of implementation.

5:05 pm

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I understand this relates to the use of poison in a particular situation, but I am concerned about the deliberate poisoning of white-tailed sea eagles and, in particular, the two red kites that were poisoned last weekend. Is the Minister seeking to convince us that this particular aspect of the Bill is strong enough to prevent this from happening and that there are serious consequences for those found guilty of this activity?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes. We deliberately have not dealt in a detailed way in this Bill with the laying of poison because it is dealt with under the Wildlife Acts. In the case of a person laying poison - in most cases this will be at farm level - we felt a need to bring clarity to whether he or she needed to get permission from the local authority to do so.

What happened recently was shocking. My understanding is that the Wildlife Acts deal with that issue. It should not have happened. It is possible to secure prosecutions if it can be proven that the birds were poisoned as a result of illegal laying of poison. I do not think we can deal with the detail of that in this Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Amendments Nos. 17, 25 and 39 are related and will be discussed together.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 17:

In page 24, between lines 39 and 40, to insert the following:

“(5) Where a local authority or the Minister proposes to recover the costs of anything done under this section, the authority or Minister, as the case may be, shall—(a) inform by notice the person concerned of the costs (including, but not limited to, salaries, subsistence, hiring of vehicles, machinery or equipment, feeding and veterinary fees), the reason for the costs and that the person may make representations in relation to the proposal not later than 14 days from the date of the notice,

(b) consider any representations duly made, and

(c) make a decision and inform by notice the person concerned, stating the decision and the reasons for the decision.”.

This amendment is intended to address the concerns of Deputy McNamara - who, unfortunately, is not in the House - in regard to the provisions of the Bill which give the Minister powers to withhold moneys due to an individual from him or her. The amendment introduces an additional safeguard by providing for a period of time within which the person may make representations and requiring the Minister to consider them before moving to withhold moneys. I should stress that the power to withhold moneys applies only where the State has had to intervene in cases of probable wrongdoing, such as disposal of non-compliant animals whose status was unverified and which, therefore, could not enter the food chain, thus giving rise to a cost to the State associated with their disposal.

Amendment agreed to.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I move amendment No. 18:

In page 25, between lines 21 and 22, to insert the following:“(i) safeguarding animals exposed to hazards in testing and research laboratories.”.

I have previously tabled questions to the Minister on this issue, which I acknowledge does not come only within the remit of his Department. There is always the danger, where several Departments are involved, of issues slipping through the cracks. We are concerned about the needless and unnecessary suffering of animals. While I acknowledge that there are currently regulations in this regard, sometimes regulations are not strong enough. This amendment seeks to ensure that animals are safeguarded when exposed to hazards in testing and research laboratories. We have discussed this issue on a number of occasions with the Minister.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will probably have anticipated what I am going to say on this. Amendment No. 18 proposes that a code of practice may issue in respect of animals used for scientific purposes. This is not appropriate, as such animals are subject to EU regulations, given effect to by a 2012 European Union directive on the protection of animals used for scientific purposes. This policy area falls outside my remit and is a matter for the Department of Health. As such, it is difficult for me to accept the amendment.

On animal research, the implementation of the three-Rs principle - namely, reduction, refinement and replacement - in respect of the use of animals in research forms a critical aspect of the new directive in this area. I understand the Deputies' concern but I do not have the capacity to deal with it in this Bill as it is already covered under EU regulations, which regulations are enforced in Ireland through the Department of Health rather than my Department.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 19, 26 and 28 are related and will be discussed together by agreement.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 19:

In page 26, line 44, after "House" to insert the following:"having been discussed by the relevant committee of the House".

The Minister will be aware of my view that a little extra time spent on debating regulations results in better public buy-in and insures as far as possible against the law of unintended consequences. I believe in the importance of the Houses of the Oireachtas and their input. In fairness, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has demonstrated that with proper engagement by this House the legislative process can seriously improve legislation or regulation. That was my experience as a Minister also.

The resolution of this Government on taking office was that it would engage the House in much more legislative work. Amendments Nos. 19, 26 and 28, therefore, seek to provide that when regulations are being introduced they automatically go before the relevant committee of the Houses for discussion. While currently there is a requirement to lay regulations before the Houses, only a few regulations are discussed by the relevant committees. I believe it would be better if we had a process in this regard similar to that introduced in regard to European laws, which if not of any great consequence can be disposed of quickly. I ask the Minister to give serious consideration to this series of amendments. I am not asking him to do anything that would not go along with the spirit of how he has handled this particular piece of legislation. I wish other Ministers followed his good example in this regard.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I understand what the Deputy is saying, but there are instances when a Minister needs to introduce regulations quickly, particularly in emergency situations. The status quo as referred to by Deputy Ó Cuív is that those regulations need to be laid before the Oireachtas and can be annulled by it within 21 sitting days, but the Minister can act if he or she needs to do so. I have given a commitment to reappear before committee to get its views and opinions on the regulations linked to this legislation. For me to tie the hands of future Ministers by requiring them to get approval from a committee before introducing a regulation, regardless of the circumstances, would be to compromise them in doing their job. Much of the time we have to introduce regulations in response, for example, to European law. It is often the case that those regulations have to be implemented within a particular timeframe. In some cases, doing so is left to the last minute. That should not be the case.

A Minister should have the flexibility to be able to introduce regulations if it is deemed necessary to do so without having to wait to get approval from the relevant committee. It is right that any new regulation would be laid before the Houses and if the Houses disagreed with it and voted on it accordingly, then it could be annulled. It is a different matter to have to go through what can be quite a prolonged procedure before one makes a regulation. There are certain cases where one would need to make a regulation quickly, particularly in the case of a disease outbreak or some other issue.

I can understand the Deputy's view. As the Minister responsible, I will try to bring as many of the regulations as we are preparing before a committee in order that we can debate them before they are finalised. However, to make that a requirement in the legislation would not be right. Therefore, I do not propose to accept the amendments.

5:15 pm

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I do not agree with what the Minister has said for a number of reasons. What I propose would not require the approval of a committee but it could discuss a regulation. There was a situation where I have had to introduce emergency legislation and it was passed in a day. The Government had a similar experience recently. If an emergency regulation had to be introduced, I am sure it would be facilitated by the House and with the way the Oireachtas works the Government has a majority in the committees. The idea of making a regulation and then possibly annulling it does not allow for the amendment of it.

The introduction of a regulation to set fees for Rossaveal Port, which come under the remit of the Minister's Department, arose during the term of this Government but on examination it was found to be riddled with inconsistencies. When I raised it at the committee I was told that the regulation had to be made and that I would have to get the Minister to annul it. I have no doubt if the Minister had put that regulation before us we would have pointed out to him that there were many inconsistencies in it. I think he would have accepted the logic of our argument, but as a consequence of what happened, that are many difficulties with it. The idea of a regulation being made and then annulled is not as good as introducing a draft regulation, debating it and making it in its original form or amending it. If we did that, we would avoid many difficulties.

The practice of being asked to introduce a measure at five minutes to, half a minute to, or one minute to midnight is endemic in the system. The person presenting it could have had it for two years. The Minister may wind up having items landed on his desk at 5 o'clock of a Friday evening and being told that they are very urgent. I quickly disposed of matters except in such circumstances. I would have asked the person presenting the matter when he or she received it and if he or she had received it six months or a year ago, my response would have been that I would take a similar time to decide on the matter. Normally I would clear a matter overnight but I was wary of the five minutes to midnight syndrome in terms of a person presenting a matter very late at night having had it for a long time. People quickly got the message not to try that one with me. It is a very bad feature of the system and it should be avoided. There is no excuse for people having European material and not bringing it forward. That has been happening for years and we have all fought that battle. Presumably the Minister is fighting the same battle as I fought against leaving everything to the last minute and then rushing a measure through because somebody is chasing it up because of the pressure of meeting a deadline.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I would like to think that the Government is making progress on that. In general, I think the formulation of policy and legislation is not being currently rushed through unless it is forced on us. I can cite a good example of why I cannot accept this amendment. In 2001 during the foot and mouth crisis, the then Minister made an order restricting the movement of animal and animal products from Northern Ireland on the night of Good Friday, having been notified of the outbreak of the disease that afternoon. If the Minister had been legally required before making a regulation to go to the Oireachtas to debate it, the then Minister would not have been able to respond in that instance. I agree with the Deputy that a better way to do this is to bring forward a draft regulation, have a debate on it, ensure that obvious mistakes are ironed out and that would give Opposition spokespersons, who take their job seriously, the opportunity to do that and then the regulation could be finalised and enforced. That is a preferable method but of any morning any issue could arise with which I would have to deal quickly. It could be an outbreak of a disease or a crisis, whether it be a dioxin scare, a foot and mouth crisis, an outbreak of BSE or some other issue, with which I would need to deal quickly and competently to lock down the situation. A Minister in my position needs to be given the powers to be able to do that, if he or she has to do so in an emergency situation. That is why we have a retrospective assessment of regulations when they are introduced and they can be annulled if they are not properly done. In this Department, in particular, given the history of the past 20 or 30 years, we need to be able to act very quickly in certain circumstances. What is being asked in these amendments, even though it is preferable in terms of practice in nine out of every ten regulations that I would have to introduce, in requiring a Minister to go through that procedure and forcing him or her potentially to wait for a Dáil sitting to introduce a regulation is not appropriate in all circumstances.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My first proposal relates to animal health levies under Part 5. It is difficult to see where a crisis could arise there. Therefore, my case stands. In the parts of the Bill where I propose to insert these provisions there are not necessarily any circumstances in which the type of crisis the Minister mentioned could occur. If he could show me where a draft regulation of the type to which I referred relates to that type of a crisis situation, I will withdraw my amendment if he accepts the amendment that relates to the making of a regulation that could never arise in a crisis situation. Animal health levies is an obvious example of that.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will respond to that. The case of animal health levies which the Deputy has raised is a fair point. The section the Deputy is seeking to amend states: "Where the Minister proposes to make regulations under this section, [that is, animal health levies] a draft of the regulations shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House." This means that the Houses of the Oireachtas need to pass this regulation in regard to health levies before it can be introduced. In the case of animal health levies the Minister has to go through that practice because it is not one of a crisis mode. What I am referring to is some of the other asks in terms of a Minister being able to make a decision quickly. Both Houses of the Oireachtas have to support the regulation in regard to an animal health levy before the Minister can introduce it. That surely satisfies the Deputy's concerns.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It does not because I have been in this House thousands of time when a motion on a proposed regulation on the Order of Business has been taken without debate.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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How stands the amendment?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The amendment is being pressed.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 20 arises out of Committee proceedings, amendments Nos. 20 to 24, inclusive, are related and they will be discussed together.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 20:

In page 27, to delete lines 4 to 18 and substitute the following:

27.—(1) A person shall not export or attempt to export an animal live from the State unless he or she—(a) has paid to the Minister the amount of any outstanding animal health levy,

or

(b) is acting in accordance with regulations under this section relating to the payment to the Minister of animal health levy.(2) The Minister may by regulations provide for matters relating to the payment of animal health levy and such regulations may in particular provide for—(a) the periodic issue of invoices, including by means of electronic communication,

(b) the prohibition on the export of an animal except under specified conditions,

(c) the receipt of animal health levy including by electronic means,

(d) the arrangements for the collection and payment of animal health levy on behalf of persons from whom it is due and payable by persons of a particular class or description,

(e) the keeping of records and the making of returns (including electronic records and returns) for the purposes of this Part,

(f) the persons or a class of persons by whom such records are to be maintained or returns made,

(g) the period for which such records are to be maintained,

(h) the production of such records to such persons as are specified in the regulations,

(i) the use of systems whether maintained under Part 11 or otherwise for the purposes of assessing and verifying the amount of animal health levy due and payable, and

(j) such incidental, supplementary and consequential provisions as appear to the Minister to be necessary for the purposes of the payment of animal health levy.(3) Regulations made under subsection (2) may provide for different arrangements for the payment of animal health levy due and payable in respect of an animal exported live from the State, in respect of a slaughtered animal or in respect of milk.

(4) A person who contravenes subsection (1) or a provision of regulations made under subsection (2) which is stated in the regulations to be a penal provision commits an offence.

(5) The Customs Acts apply to an animal the export of which is prohibited by this section or regulations made under subsection (2).”.

This is quite a long amendment.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister can give us the gist of it in a paragraph.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The amendments I propose to section 27 are designed to provide for maximum flexibility so the arrangements for the collection of the animal levies can be amended in future via regulations to reflect best practice in terms of efficiency and public accounting requirements.

Accordingly, the requirement for advance payment of the levy, whether in cash format or, if possible, securely, in respect of animals exported live from the State, as currently contained in the Bovine Diseases (Levies) Acts 1979 and 1996, is being dispensed with in favour of a more flexible and adaptable system to make regulations to regulate the collection and remittance of any animal health levies provided for in Part 5 of the Bill. The requirement for advance payment of the levy on live exports reflects a time when most animals were exported from individual holdings. Nowadays livestock must be assembled for export and over 98% of cattle exported are processed through approved assembly centres. The advance collection of the live export levy is therefore no longer practical and causes auditing difficulties. A better and more efficient system of collection is required.

Regulations to be made under section 27(2) will facilitate the setting up of the system to ensure more cost-effective means of collecting the levy, particularly the animal health levy on live exports. Currently, moneys due are collected by Department staff on duty at assembly centres and lodged manually to the Department's bank account. It will be possible to set up an electronic system for collection, which will be more effective and efficient, through regulations under section 27(2). The €5 million contribution by farmers under the levy system underpins the compensation regime. In other words, we are modernising the system. This will make it easier to pay, and one will not have to pay some days in advance. This is just moving the payment model with the times.

Amendment agreed to.

5:25 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 21:

In page 27, line 22, to delete "prior to" and substitute "of".

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 22:

In page 27, line 31, after "shall" to insert the following:", unless otherwise provided for in regulations under section 27(2)*".

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 23:

In page 28, line 3, after "subsection (2)" to insert "or regulations made under section 27(2)*".

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 24:

In page 28, line 5, after "subsection (2)" to insert the following:" or, as the case may be, regulations made under section 27(2)*".

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 25:

In page 29, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:"(4) Where the Minister proposes to recover costs under subsection (3), the Minister shall—
(a) inform by notice the person concerned of the costs (including, but not limited to, salaries, subsistence, hiring of vehicles, machinery or equipment, feeding and veterinary fees) the reason for the costs and that he or she may make representations in relation to the proposal not later than 14 days from the date of the notice,

(b) consider any representations duly made, and

(c) make a decision and inform by notice the person concerned, stating the decision and the reasons for the decision.".

Amendment agreed to.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 26:

In page 31, to delete lines 43 to 45.

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand," put and declared carried.

Amendment declared lost.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 27:

In page 35, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:"(5) Section 16 of the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010 does not apply to a dog in a dog breeding establishment where—
(a) the dog is implanted with a microchip, or

(b) the dog is removed, caused to be removed or its removal has been permitted to another premises, in accordance with animal health and welfare regulations.

(6) Animal health and welfare regulations may provide for the extent (if any) to which—

(a) regulations under section 28 of the Control of Horses Act 1996 relating to the identification of horses, or

(b) regulations under section 9(2) of the Welfare of Greyhounds Act 2011 regarding the identification and traceability of greyhounds, do not apply.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 28:

In page 35, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:"(5) All such regulations will be brought before the relevant committee of the House for discussion before being approved by the House.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 29 arises out of Committee proceedings. I call on Deputy Ó Cuív to move the amendment.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 29:

In page 35, line 12, after "Minister" to insert "or an authorised officer of the Department".

The Bill states: "The Minister may for the purposes of enforcing this Act or an EU measure, appoint in writing, such persons or classes of person as he or she considers appropriate to be authorised officers". We discussed this on Committee Stage and it seems to me that it is a meaningless task when the Minister personally receives lists of proposed authorised officers and does not know them from Adam but has to sign off on them. He should be able to appoint somebody from within the Department to make those appointments. I do not understand why it all has to land on his desk.

I had the experience of appointing deciding officers in the Department of Social Welfare and I received long lists of people to appoint. I did not know them from Adam. What could I do but appoint them all as they came onto my desk? Would it not have been more practical if some assistant secretary could have appointed them all and saved me the bother? At least that person would have some responsibility for them on a line management basis.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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My legal advice is that the current wording allows that an officer of suitable grade can act for the Minister in appointing authorised officers and that therefore the amendment is not required, but when I read section 37 as a lay person I do not see how that view is accommodated, so I am happy to accept the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Amendment No. 30 is in the names of Deputies Clare Daly and Maureen O'Sullivan. Amendments Nos. 30 and 34 are related and will be discussed together. I call on Deputy Daly to move amendment No. 30.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I move amendment No. 30:

In page 35, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:"(2) The Minister will be obliged to have regard for experience and qualification when appointing authorised officers.".

The appointment of authorised officers is a step forward that we welcome, as would many involved in animal welfare. The Government, however, has to ensure that the people appointed have the relevant expertise to carry out proper animal protection. What safeguards exist to ensure that happens? What standards will the Minister set for these officers? It is a new area in Irish legislation. Where will the officers come from? That is a particularly pertinent question against the backdrop of austerity measures, the public sector recruitment embargo and the fact that there is no other public sector recruitment. If new people will not be appointed to fill the new positions then existing employees, maybe in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine or other Departments, will be the ones called to be authorised officers, and we have to ask what their expertise is and how it will be safeguarded. How will the Minister's Department monitor and evaluate achievement of those targets and so on?

We think it necessary to include in the Act the caveat that there must be due regard to experience and qualifications, because otherwise anybody could be an authorised officer for the purpose of the Act. What safeguards are there, apart from leaving it to the Department to work out the guidelines of the process, to which we would not be privy? It would be better if there were an independent body. In the absence of that, we need a bit more.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Much of the debate on the Minister's side has been about greater regulation and increased emphasis on codes of practice. They will not be worth the paper on which they are written unless there are qualified inspectors with the necessary expertise to ensure adherence to those regulations and that the codes and standards of practice are being addressed. There are concerns among some animal welfare groups that even when gardaí go in to a situation people get away with cruelty because the gardaí are not exactly sure of the legal rights. There have been requests that ISPCA inspectors be considered as authorised officers in non-farm cases. They have proven themselves. They have the knowledge and expertise and they act impartially and professionally. To enforce the greater regulation that the Minister wants and that we all support, there is a need for trained inspectors. Is there a sufficient register of people who abuse animals and is it kept in a professional way so that these people are known?

5:35 pm

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My amendment is in a slightly different format in that it states persons may only be appointed authorised officers under section 37(1), (2) and (3) where they have satisfied the Minister or appointing authority that they have the experience, technical competence, and other qualifications to undertake the functions of an authorised officer. It goes without saying that if someone is going to act as an authorised officer, he or she will have to have the knowledge to do the job. It is important to reassure people by making this explicit rather than implicit in the Bill.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We are all at the same thing here. Section 37(1) states: "The Minister may for the purposes of enforcing this Act or an EU measure, appoint in writing, such persons or classes of person as he or she considers appropriate to be authorised officers for the exercise of all or any of the functions conferred on an authorised officer under this Act specified in the appointment." I do not want to be appointing some officer from the ISPCA, for example, as an authorised officer for certain jobs but then have people asking what are his or her experience and qualifications. I would then have to define the qualifications in law. Once one introduces a requirement to preclude certain people from being made authorised officers, then one has to define what it is based on. What is a qualification in this area? Some people may have years of experience but few qualifications. That is why I deliberately left it open, so that a Minister may only appoint someone appropriate to do a specific job.

Let us take an example in which Ireland has a significant animal disease outbreak, forcing me to appoint hundreds of authorised officers to get a handle on sectioning off large areas of land and give them powers to act on my behalf for a specific period and reason. I do not want to be tied down dealing with qualifications and experience. I will need to be able appoint somebody appropriate for the job quickly.

My amendment, No. 33, does not propose to appoint somebody under section 37(3) under a service agreement. My thinking is that a person with a lot of experience of dealing with cases of animal cruelty and management, particularly in an urban environment, would be useful for our Department. However, people going onto farms need to have the experience to understand farm practices and so forth. There was a genuine concern that there would be people entering farms who would pursue animal welfare concerns but without an understanding of farm practices. My amendment deals with these concerns. I have also spoken with the animal welfare organisations on this matter, and they are not looking to go onto farms. They want to be able to do their jobs in partnership with my Department as authorised officers in certain cases, so they can effectively deal with animal cruelty and abuse cases in private homes and urban environments. They would be a fantastic asset to my Department. They would also have to deal with cases on public lands. For example, there have been some horrific horse welfare cases in the past ten days that I have had to deal with in Cork and other parts of Ireland, where horses are starving to death in fields. In these cases, I would be happy to have the help of authorised officers from various sources who have experience of dealing with animal welfare but who are not necessarily veterinary practitioners or departmental employees.

Regarding Deputy Clare Daly's concerns, we will not necessarily have to employ a whole new raft of people. One can appoint an authorised officer who is currently employed by the Department, a local authority or the ISPCA, for example. They would not be taken on and paid for this role but would be given extra powers under the law to do their own job more effectively. This is not about recruitment but about giving the extra powers of an authorised officer to people who are already employed in this area so they can do their jobs more effectively

I feel my amendment deals with the concerns raised by Deputy Ó Cuív, while amendments Nos. 30 and 34 may actually preclude the persons whom the Deputies wish to see appointed to these positions from being appointed. Accordingly, I will not be accepting these amendments.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I accept the Minister's argument and that his heart is with our amendments. There was another case in Cork recently in which a red fox was tortured and hanged from a bus stop. These cases show us the vital need for inspectors. I felt the term “appropriate” was a little bit loose in the legislation. While I am not suggesting a qualification or a degree is the answer to everything, experience is also vital in this area. I accept the Minister will take this into account when appointing inspectors but I did feel the term “appropriate” was vague.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I accept that, but I want the flexibility to appoint the right people. We will be screening potential officers to ensure they have the experience. The last thing we want is to appoint someone with the powers of an authorised officer who means well but does not know what he or she is doing. This would cause real damage to what we are trying to achieve with the legislation.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I will not press the amendment, because of the spirit of the Minister's intention in this regard.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 31 and 32 are related and will be discussed together.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 31:

In page 35, line 18, after “Act” to insert the following:“in the functional area of the authority, or other authority in accordance with subsection (5)(b),”.

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 32:

In page 35, line 21, after “Act” to insert the following:“in the functional area of the authority, or other authority in accordance with subsection 5(b)”.

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 33:

In page 35, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following:“(4) An authorised officer appointed under subsection (3) shall not exercise a function conferred on an authorised officer in relation to—
(a) an animal of the bovine, ovine, porcine or caprine species which is kept on a farm for the commercial production of food for human consumption, or

(b) a horse kept on such a farm.”.

This provides for distinguishing of the role of authorised officers on farms from the role of authorised officers everywhere else. There was a genuine concern among the farming community that we would introduce new authorised officers who would not have an understanding of farming. I have said the authorised officers currently inspecting farms are likely to be the same people who will continue to do it. The contracts we may enter into with experienced officers working for the ISPCA and other welfare organisations will not involve farms. The organisations are not looking for access to farms anyway.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome this amendment, as it shows the Minister has taken on board legitimate concerns and has dealt with them.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 34 not moved.

5:45 pm

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 35:

In page 37, line 9, before “regarding” to insert “or produce for inspection any record”.

This amendment proposes that an authorised officer may require someone to produce records as well as simply provide information. It is largely a technical amendment but it provides for asking people to produce records to back up what they have said, which is sensible.

Amendment agreed to.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 36 and 38 are related and will be discussed together.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 36:

In page 38, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:“(5) The power conferred on an authorised officer under subsection (4)(a) and (b) may only be exercised by an inspector of the Minister.”.

Certain functions are proposed in section 38(4) relating to circumstances in which an authorised officer has reasonable grounds for believing that there is a risk of disease or a disease or disease agent is or may be present on any land or premises. We have avoided over-prescribing what qualifications an authorised officer should have. In the case of disease, it is reasonable to suggest that the power conferred on an authorised officer under subsection (4)(a) and (b) may only be exercised by an inspector of the Minister. It seems to me that an authorised officer would not be capable of determining whether a disease was present.

The beginning of section 42 refers to circumstances in which an authorised officer is of the opinion that a contravention of the Act, an EU measure or animal health and welfare regulations may have taken place or may be taking place or where an animal, animal product or animal feed, land or premises is, or may be, affected with disease or a disease agent. This comes back to the question of how an authorised officer who is not an expert can determine everything about a disease without consulting a veterinary practitioner, particularly if he is not an inspector of the Department. Therefore, I believe both amendments are realistic and sensible in the context of the Bill. They ensure that only a person with the competence to make a judgment on disease is authorised to do so and that such a person should have the qualification to make a judgment as well.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will deal with these separately. We held a discussion on the matter on Committee Stage. Deputy Ó Cuív sought to set up two classes of authorised officer. The first was an officer of the Minister, who, I understood at the time, was to be a veterinary surgeon or somehow more qualified than a person who was simply an authorised officer under the provisions we are discussing. I took the view that it was unnecessary to have two classes of inspector and that authorised officers should simply be authorised officers. That is why I do not propose to accept amendment No. 36.

Amendment No. 38 relates to the animal health and welfare notice, a concept we are introducing in the Bill whereby an authorised officer can give what is essentially a yellow card to someone. I believe this is a good concept, as it gives an option to an authorised officer to give a welfare notice to someone who may be compromising welfare without having to go to court. To make a distinction between inspectors of the Minister and authorised officers confuses the situation. The important points about the issuing of welfare notices are that the person must engage in consultation before he does so and that there are systems to ensure that notices are given out only in appropriate circumstances. I believe those systems are in place. I am afraid I do not propose to accept these two amendments.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 37:

In page 38, to delete lines 38 to 40 and substitute the following:“(2) Where a person is arrested by a member of the Garda Síochána under subsection (1), the person shall be taken by the member to a Garda Síochána station and may be detained there or arrested and detained there in accordance with section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act 1984 and, accordingly, the reference in subsection (2) (inserted by section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006) of that Act to “an offence to which this section applies” is to be read as including a reference to an offence referred to in section 36(4)(b) or 52(2).”.

I am clarifying the powers of a garda to arrest a person. The amendment is based on legal advice from the Department of Justice and Equality and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and ensures the legislation is in line with the Criminal Justice Act 2006.

The original text of the amendment reads "an offence referred in section 36(4)(b) or 52(2).", but the final words of the amendment should more properly read "an offence referred to in section 36(4)(b) or 52(2)."

Amendment agreed to.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 38:

In page 40, line 8, to delete “authorised officer” and substitute the following:“inspector, or an authorised officer on the advice of a veterinary practitioner”.

Question: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.

Amendment declared lost.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 39:

In page 44, between lines 39 and 40, to insert the following:“(5) Where a local authority, the Minister or a person who appointed an authorised officer proposes to recover the costs of anything done under this section, the authority, Minister or person shall—
(a) inform by notice the person concerned of the costs (including, but not limited to, salaries, subsistence, hiring of vehicles, machinery or equipment, feeding and veterinary fees) the reason for the costs and that he or she may make representations in relation to the proposal not later than 14 days from the date of the notice,

(b) consider any representations duly made, and

(c) make a decision and inform by notice the person concerned, stating the decision and the reasons for the decision.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 40:

In page 46, to delete lines 18 to 24 and substitute the following:“49.—(1) Where an authorised officer has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing or has committed an offence under section 18, 51(4) or 36(4)(a), an offence referred to in section 52(1) or an offence under section 64(4), he or she shall report this to, as the case may be, another officer of the Minister authorised by the Minister or another officer of the local authority concerned, authorised by the manager of that local authority, in that behalf.

(2) An officer who receives a report under subsection (1), if he or she considers it appropriate, may serve on the person a notice in writing (“fixed payment notice”) stating that—”.

This amendment is intended to make clear that the authorisation to issue a penalty is separate from the general authorised officer provisions of the Bill. The Bill provides adequate checks and balances and I am satisfied that it will not be possible for a so-called trigger-happy officer to give out spurious on-the-spot fines. There was a concern among farming organisations in particular, reflected in the commentary by some of the Deputies opposite on Committee Stage, that giving the power to authorised officers to impose on-the-spot fines would mean that farmers would be hit with fines from people seeking to use that power in an overly eager manner. We have made some changes which reflect the views and concerns expressed on Committee Stage and I hope this will allay people's concerns.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is fair to say that there was serious concern about this issue. I was much in favour of the idea of on-the-spot fines at the beginning but then I had to accept points that had been made which on reflection had a certain validity. I believe the Minister has hit a happy medium whereby, although it will be possible to keep all of this out of the courts, a single person cannot act on his own; it will now take two people. That is a reasonable compromise and I am willing to accept it.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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I wish to express my appreciation to the Minister for the spirit in which he has approached the Bill and the amendments he has made on Committee Stage and today, particularly amendment No. 25, which changed section 30 to introduce due process requirements.

My question is not rhetorical. I welcome the Minister's amendment, which greatly improves the section. The obvious intention of section 49 is that notices may be issued to keep these matters out of court.

Subsection (2) as amended will read "An officer who receives a report under subsection (1), if he or she considers it appropriate, may serve on the person a notice in writing ...". Would it be appropriate to consult the person concerned or allow for representations from him or her? This may not be appropriate and I do not have a particular answer in mind when putting that question. I welcome the amendment.

5:55 pm

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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On Committee Stage there was a significant debate on this issue and I am glad to see the Minister has moved some way towards addressing it. That is welcome.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is important to put this matter in context. This measure provides that an authorised officer who clearly sees that there is something wrong in the context of compromising animal welfare cannot, as initially proposed, simply slap a fine of €250 on the farmer concerned. The officer must go to the local authority or back to base and report the fact and then get a second opinion before imposing the fine. In other words, this will prevent situations where there is an impulsive or power happy imposition of a fine on farmers or anybody else. That was the concern expressed. Now the officer will have to go back and get a second opinion that on the basis of a report there is a need to serve a notice. That must happen quickly. The point is that a notice will not just be about imposing a fine, but it will also give a direction to correct the problem. It is a short, sharp response to a relatively insignificant breach of animal welfare regulations. It allows a farmer or whoever is involved to receive a rap over the knuckles, pay a fine and fix the problem. If the person concerned does not fix the problem, court proceedings may be taken. This measure will keep people out of court and allow them to address what may have been a mistake of which they were not aware. This is a way of dealing with the issue without having to go to court. Where possible, we should be trying to keep people out of court for minor breaches of the rules. That is what this is about.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 41 not moved.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 42:

In page 52, line 4, to delete “section 18(7)” and substitute “section 18(5)”.

Amendment agreed to.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 43:

In page 55, to delete lines 35 to 49 and substitute the following:62.—(1) Without prejudice to the Criminal Evidence Act 1992, a copy of a record which has endorsed on it a certificate purporting to be signed by a person (authorised by the Minister in that behalf) stating that the copy is a true copy of the record may, without proof of signature (including an electronic signature) of that person, be produced in every court and in all legal proceedings and is evidence, unless the contrary is shown, of the record.

(2) A copy of an animal health and welfare notice, a fixed payment notice, a direction or requirement in writing of an authorised officer or a licence, permit, approval or authorisation under animal health and welfare regulations shall be authenticated by the signature of the person issuing it. An electronic signature (within the meaning of section 2 of the Electronic Commerce Act 2000) may be used for such authentication.”.

I propose to insert a new version of this section to clarify the use of electronic documents. This is an important piece of future-proofing. With complex systems involving animal tracing, keeping paper copies of everything is costly and inefficient. Some systems may move towards keeping electronic records only of some data. This will reduce storage costs and should improve accessibility to records. Given what we are planning to do in the context of the microchipping of dogs and horses and the management of horse passports and all of the systems this will involve which will require a software programme, it is evident that we should move away from paper records, if possible.

Amendment agreed to.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Amendments Nos. 44 and 45 are related and will be discussed together.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I move amendment No. 44:

In page 56, between lines 13 and 14, to insert the following:“(iv) feral cat populations,

(v) animals sold as pets,

(vi) canines used for breeding purposes.”.

On my own behalf and that of Deputy Clare Daly, there was a misunderstanding when Deputy Bernard J. Durkan was in the Chair and we did not have an opportunity to speak to amendment No. 14. We would have liked to have been able to draw attention to the cruelty of the digging-out aspect of wild animals going to ground involving the use of ferrets to the culling of badgers and the use of horrific which leaves them waiting to be shot and their young to starve. We discussed this issue on Committee Stage and I understand the Minister is looking at the vaccination programme. The amendment also concerned the use of animals in circus performances, an issue on which Deputy Clare Daly worked as a councillor. It is welcome that Fingal County Council has banned the use of wild animals in circuses. I say this in order that the animal welfare groups which had expected us to speak on these issues will understand we did not have that opportunity.

I acknowledge the funding given to the rescue centres. We understand that, with the current financial constraints, there is increasing pressure on these centres owing to the number of animals being neglected not to count animals being treated cruelly. There is pressure on them also as a result of the position on both domestic and feral cats. In the domestic setting there are many unwanted kittens and cats that are left to roam. As a result, they breed rapidly as they are not monitored. Feral cats present an increasing problem in many communities. In this context, I have a concern about pest control companies. I have received calls from people because such companies have come and taken cats on the assumption that they are feral cats. They are not animal welfare organisations, not trained in animal welfare and not monitored or inspected. They are business entities. I am following up on this issue in respect of certain supermarket chains which are bringing in such companies to get rid of cats roaming around their stores. Many of these cats have owners, but they are being seen as feral and their owners end up losing much loved pets that have been part of the family for a long time. The Minister spoke about the microchipping of dogs. I suggest we also look at the microchipping of cats.

There are examples of good international practice in this regard. In Rome, for example, there was a successful 15 year programme to trap, neuter and return cats. Under a similar programme in Washington, the city's feral cat population decreased by 90%. Many individuals and companies are doing their best to facilitate the capture of feral cats in order that they can be neutered and returned. I would like to mention a constituency not too far from that of the Minister. Recently a major operation took place on Cape Clear Island which was almost overrun by feral cats. Welfare officers trapped the cats and took them away to be neutered. They were then returned to the island. The Minister should give serious consideration to the trapping, neutering and return policy and it would be cost effective. He should also deal with concerns about pest control companies.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I echo the points made by Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan. This is a quality of life and welfare rather than a pest issue. In that sense, the role of pest companies is not essential. If we are to deal with the issue properly, feral cats should be included in some form in the legislation. We are talking about a population of approximately 1 million such cats in the country. This obviously puts enormous pressure on rescue centres to take in unwanted kittens or cats. The State funding provided is not adequate to keep up with demand. The majority of these cats remain unneutered and breed rapidly. If we are to deal with this issue properly, we must develop a trapping, neutering and return programme. This is essential if we are to deal with the issue humanely. There should be a national campaign to ensure these cats are brought to vets to undergo a health check, be treated for parasites, neutered, microchipped and returned to the wild, with some form of identification to provide clarity that the procedure has been carried out. This could be done in conjunction with a programme covering domestic cat owners. Otherwise, we will have a situation where hundreds of thousands of feral kittens will be born every year, many of which will die before they are one month old. We should be moving in the direction of neutering. The issue is of huge concern to animal owners and we need to include provisions in the Bill to deal with it, rather than highlight the categories in the section.

Under the legislative provisions governing rent supplement, the Department’s relationship is with the tenant; the tenant makes the application for rent supplement and payment is made to the tenant. Rent supplement is specifically for the benefit of tenants to assist them with their accommodation needs. There is no direct relationship between the landlord and the Department in the administration of the scheme. However, Social Welfare legislation provides for the payment of a rent supplement payment to a nominated payee such a landlord on behalf of the tenant. This arrangement is entered at the tenant’s request and subject to the consent of the Department. The department official dealing with the request will take into account all the relevant circumstances of the particular case and the tenant’s preference will be accommodated where possible.

Within the timeframe available, I have not been able to ascertain whether any Court decisions have imposed a civil liability on this Department for loss or damage arising from tenancy contracts as a result of rent supplement issues or whether any associated legal advice has been received. The Department will advise the Deputy further on the matter in due course.

It is open to the landlord to bring to the attention of the Department any instance where they suspect that a tenant is receiving rent supplement and is not paying their rent. Where the Department becomes aware that a person is not using rent supplement to meet the accommodation costs, payment of the supplement is suspended and the matter investigated. Where a landlord has a grievance in relation to the non-payment of rent by a tenant, s/he may apply to the Private Residential Tenancies Board to have the dispute resolved through the Board’s dispute resolution process.

The Department’s circulars regarding rent supplement do not place any legal obligation in relation to decisions on the payment of rent supplement but are designed to provide guidance to departmental staff in the exercise of their powers having regard to the requirements of the legislation.

6:05 pm

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am afraid we have reached 7.30 p.m.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Can I just make the point that we are doing exactly what Deputy Daly suggests? We have increased the funding given to animal welfare organisations despite all the pressures of the last two budgets. I hope to continue to do that. We have a code of conduct for all welfare organisations. They have to apply that code, which includes neutering and rehousing programmes, in order to get funding. We are supporting the track, neuter and return programme for feral cats. We are doing a great deal in this area. We are considering whether to itemise feral cats specifically in legislation even though we have not done that in other areas. There is a difference between a cat that is essentially wild and a protected cat that has an owner to whom we can attach responsibility. We need to deal with the issue of animals that are essentially wild through the track, neuter and return programme because it is not easy to do so in legislation.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister to adjourn the debate.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I understand it will resume immediately after the Order of Business tomorrow morning. I will come back to this issue then. Perhaps we will finish the debate tomorrow. I hope that can be facilitated.

Debate adjourned.

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Wednesday, 27 March 2013

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Animal Health and Welfare Bill 2012 [Seanad]: Report Stage (Resumed)

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