Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Budget day is always a big day for the Minister for Finance. This is not the first budget, the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, has presented but it may well be the last. We would not be in this position if the Government, of which Deputy Cowen has been Taoiseach for the past number of years, had managed the economic affairs of the people competently. Of all the budgets I have awaited, this has received the most hype. Borrowings for 2009 of €26 billion include a figure of €4 billion for Anglo Irish Bank. This is real money from taxpayers' pockets. The big idea in this budget from both Brians seems to be to create jobs by reducing the price of drink. Following the cuts that will take place in social welfare, children's allowance and for low-paid, vulnerable people, do the figures to be presented today include up to €6 billion for the further recapitalisation of Anglo Irish Bank? By itself, this would wipe out the impact of all the cuts presented by the Minister for Finance. Do the figures for 2010 include this figure of up to €6 billion of real taxpayers' money, wiping out the impact of the cuts to be announced this afternoon?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Recapitalisation arises as a result of the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank in that specific case and because of the investments taxpayers have made in other covered institutions. Those issues are separate from the Budget Statement to be made by the Minister for Finance today. We need a functioning banking system in order to have a proper economy. That is a continuing challenge for the Government. The real issue for the country today is to take the necessary steps to confirm, at home and abroad, our capacity to manage our affairs and take the decisions necessary to reduce costs in our economy.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I disagree fundamentally with the Taoiseach. There are problems with the public finances, the banking crisis and the recession.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We are anticipating the budget debate.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

For God's sake, the Ceann Comhairle should get real.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

That is not the business of the Ceann Comhairle.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputies should take it easy; there is more to come.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Can the Ceann Comhairle clarify?

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Deputy Kenny is anticipating questions that can legitimately be raised in the debate on the budget.

Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There are great expectations and we will still surprise the Opposition Deputies.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This is Leaders' Questions and I have not asked my second question. I disagree fundamentally with the Taoiseach. This is not a separate issue. The moneys pumped into Anglo Irish Bank, including €4 billion this year, are real moneys from real taxpayers' pockets. We cannot keep it separate in another entity, as if it is not real money affecting real people. My question concerns the figures to be presented this afternoon by the Minister for Finance. Do these figures include €6 billion to bail out Anglo Irish Bank?

This Government has talked tough about a lot of people. This morning, a Minister of State was asked on local radio if it is fair to cut children's allowance, but there was no answer. We know it is not and if the Taoiseach had followed the Fine Gael view, we would not have to.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We would be bankrupt.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Government has talked tough about everybody, but why has the Government not acted tough with the banks?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Hear, hear.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In conjunction with the European Commission and the European Central Bank, can we take it that the Government will wind down Anglo Irish Bank in an orderly fashion and save the taxpayers €3 billion to €4 billion out of their pockets? My question concerns whether the figure is included in the figures to be presented this afternoon. In view of the likelihood of pouring more money down the black hole, will the Government wind down Anglo Irish Bank in conjunction with the European Commission and European Central Bank rather than having real people pay real money out of their hard-earned taxes for those who have swanned around the world-----

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is the soundbite.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

-----as if they own the place, as if they can do what they like immune from any law or any action from Government?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They played golf on €500,000 a year.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

There is a cosy cartel within banking.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I have made the point to Deputy Kenny that I will not speculate on any further recapitalisation required for any bank. Clearly, any future recapitalisation that may be necessary is not incorporated in the figures for today's budget.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State, Deputy Dick Roche, should keep his head down. The Dublin Docklands Development Authority did not do him any favours.

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

What about a figure of €2.3 billion?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The question relates to an investment-----

Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Clowns.

Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, is on the way out.

Séamus Kirk (Louth, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Taoiseach without interruption.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Someone should muzzle the Minister of State, Deputy Roche.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Minister of State should watch it or he will find himself a further row back.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The question relates to investment. Investment and recapitalisation do not have an effect on the Exchequer borrowing requirement. This is covered by EU rules in respect of national accounts. Regarding what must be done to avoid exposure to the taxpayer, this is the primary objective of the Government in respect of any investment made in any banks.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Taoiseach will write any cheques so.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Taoiseach seems to think that the euro that will be taken out of the pockets of families later this evening is different from the one that is paid to the banks. It is not. It is the same euro with a harp on one side and a little picture of Europe on the other. The idea that somehow it is a different kind of money is misleading people.

As we are just about five hours away from hearing what pain is going to be inflicted on families in this country, cuts in child benefit, in welfare, in the pay of people paying it out, to raise €4 billion, how many billion euro of the people's money has been paid over to the banks this year? As I read it, €4 billion has been paid to Anglo Irish Bank, €3.5 billion to the Bank of Ireland and another €3.5 billion to AIB, and that is before we come to NAMA. Will the Taoiseach tell the people, before he takes money out of their pockets this afternoon, how many billion euro have been paid this year to the banks?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

As the Deputy knows, the recapitalisation that has taken place at the Bank of Ireland and AIB is in respect of preference shares that the State has taken in those banks. The Minister has indicated that ordinary shares will be involved in any further investments or recapitalisation required in the future. We are being paid for the guarantees that we have given and are ensuring that there is a return on the investment we are making in those banks.

I do not suggest for one moment that one euro is any different from another. The direct question I was answering was whether there is any prospect of a future recapitalisation of the banks being incorporated into the Budget Statement today and the answer is "No". Any investment the State makes in banks that require borrowings will be added to our debt requirement but that does not affect the budgetary figures in terms of the Exchequer borrowing requirement today. The issue for us is to see how we can have a strong, functioning banking system that will serve the economy and serve the people who depend on it.

This attempt to separate the interests of banking from the wider interest of the economy is an incorrect analysis. Every government has to invest in the banking system to provide a basis on which the economy can recover. In addition, we have to take whatever domestic policy decisions we need to bring our public finances back into order because our current position would not be sustainable if we did not take those actions. The Opposition must take that into account too.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Taoiseach would like us to believe that the two things are entirely separate. He talks about recovering money from the banks. I do not know how he will do that because they are already looking for more. Anglo Irish Bank, having got €4 billion, is looking for another €5.7 billion; Bank of Ireland and AIB, having between them got €7 billion, are looking for another €7.2 billion.

Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Labour Party wanted to nationalise the banks.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The people's hard-earned money is being paid over to the banks in whatever form the Taoiseach describes and billions will be taken out of people's pockets this afternoon because the Taoiseach and his party, and their developer and banker friends, have ruined this economy.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They were in Galway tent.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

Money from the National Pensions Reserve Fund is being paid over to fund the banks because the Government for the past ten years fuelled a property bubble and stood over irresponsible lending and borrowing, without proper regulation. We are now in a situation where the banks are in trouble and the Government has to beggar ordinary people in order to pay for the economy.

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Labour Party demanded more.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

When we come in here at 3.45 p.m. to hear the budget, we will hear the high price that the people have to pay for having Fianna Fáil in government for far too long.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Noel Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

They would be paying a higher price if the Labour Party was in government.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

I suppose on the morning of any budget there will always be a lot of political rhetoric.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have not heard much from the Government side.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The revisionism that is taking place is pretty predictable. Every developed country in the world faces a large and difficult economic and financial crisis.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

It is not as big as the crisis here.

Joe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

This country has been on autopilot.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have made an adjustment of over €8 billion in gross terms in 2009 through tax and changes in expenditure in order to bring public finances under control.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context

How much has the Government put into the banks in the past year?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The purpose of this budget is to stabilise that deficit and to create the necessary confidence within the country, and externally, that it will manage its affairs, that this Government will take the decisions necessary to sustain public services in the future and that there is no way around that. We have a divided Opposition which, on the one hand, wants no cuts in services or welfare-----

Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have a

divided Government.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

We have not had a Government for the past ten years.

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

-----no cuts here or there, but, on the other, suggests that we will tax our way out of this problem by making further impositions on labour and companies. That would not maintain jobs, it would destroy them.

Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context

The Government is closing hospitals. When will it open a new one?

Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context

In the meantime, as one comes to the end of one's contribution, the usual shouting starts.