Dáil debates
Thursday, 21 April 2005
Order of Business.
10:30 am
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Order of Business is No. 16, Garda SÃochána Bill 2004 [Seanad] â Second Stage (resumed); No. 17, Land Bill 2004 [Seanad] â Second Stage (resumed); and No. 2, Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse (Amendment) Bill 2005 â Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken not later than 1.30 p.m. and the order shall not resume thereafter. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the resumed Second Stage of No. 16 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is the proposal for dealing with No. 16, the conclusion of Second Stage of the Garda SÃochána Bill 2004 agreed to? Agreed.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is four years since the Taoiseach announced that the needs of consumers would be a high priority for the Government. Today a leaked report from the consumer strategy group confirms that Irish consumers are being ripped off and that Government policy is hopelessly inadequate for dealing with this issue. Will we see continuing prevarication from Government, with report after report on issues of consumer protection piling up, or will we see action from the Government? Will the Tánaiste accept the Fine Gael Private Members' legislation on a consumer enforcer, a key recommendation of the group, and implement it rather than delaying the House with lengthy redrafting? We should act on these issues instead of leaving consumers exposed to constant rip-offs.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Yesterday my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, tabled a question to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment asking when this report would be published and for details of it to be given to the House. The Minister replied that he expected the report to be published in the coming weeks. The details of that report are in today's edition of The Irish Times. That is a grave disservice to the House and an insult to it. Repeatedly the Government makes announcements outside the Houses but it was brazen to tell a Member during Question Time that a report would be published in the coming weeks and then leak its contents to a national newspaper. It is something I am asking you, Sir, to voice a view on; otherwise, this House will be entirely irrelevant.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a matter of changing the rules of the House, Deputy.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am asking your view, as Chairman of the House, on the notion that a Member could be told that in coming weeks the details will be published when the same Minister obviously briefed the newspapers on the contents of the report.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a matter for the House, Deputy. It is not a matter for the Chair.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is a serious issue.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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My understanding is that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment intends publishing the report in conjunction with the Government's decision on some key recommendations in the report.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Did the Tánaiste read The Irish Times today?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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We have had two discussions at Cabinet, both this week and last week, on some of the key findings in that report and the Minister is to come back to the Government with a memorandum for decision shortly.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Will it be a series of findings where we will examine X, think about Y and set up another discussionââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, we cannot have a debate on it. I call Deputy Rabbitte.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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ââor consultation group on Z? Will decisions be taken?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I hope so.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Every day brings some new revelations about the Gama Construction scandal and the fact that 1,400 workers were exempted from paying social insurance here â three quarters of all workers so exempted over the past three years. Will the Tánaiste pledge that there will be a debate in the House as soon as the High Court matter is resolved? The Tánaiste sat on this scandal for three or four years, having encouraged this company here in the first place and acceptedââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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You have made your point, Deputy. Allow the Tánaiste answer on the question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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ââa flimsy internal investigation in her own Department when it is clear that the official did not go outside the door to ask any of the workers concerned if the allegations were true.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call the Tánaiste.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you cannot go on in this vein. You have made your point. The normal course in this House is to allow questions on debates that are promised. As the leader of a party I have allowed you ask the question on a debate. We cannot have the debate now. Please allow the Tánaiste answer your question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I agree with you, Sir. I am not asking for the debate now.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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But you are having the debate now.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I am asking the Tánaiste to commit to a debate where we can fully probe her responsibility for the gross exploitation that took place, and now it turns out that the Irish Exchequer was being cheatedââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte, please.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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ââboth in tax and social insurance terms. They were not paying tax either, Sir. Did you know that, a Cheann Comhairle?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, we cannot have this form of behaviour every Thursday morning.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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They were not paying tax or PRSI and the Tánaisteââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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You were allowed submit your question to the Tánaiste. The Tánaiste has been called to answer your question.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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ââwas responsible for invigilating it.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Someone signed the 1,400 exemptions for Gama Construction.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, allow the Tánaiste reply. The Tánaiste has been called.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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A Cheann Comhairle, I hope you will allow me to respond. First, Deputy Rabbitte should be aware that I had nothing to do with this company coming into Ireland.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I am sorry, Deputy Stagg. I had nothing to do with this company coming into Ireland.
Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Who brought them in?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Like other Ministers, and the responsible Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I always encourage investment hereââ
Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Regardless of who they are or what they do.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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ââand, by and large, it has been extremely successful. Second, Deputy Stagg should be aware that SIPTU negotiated on behalf of these workers and assured the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment that all was well. All of those workers were members of SIPTU.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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What investment is the Tánaiste talking about?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That is a fact.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Tánaiste keeps talking about investment. What investment?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Rabbitte, please allow the Tánaiste reply.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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They were getting our contracts but they were not paying tax or social insurance.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Did the Tánaiste know they were not paying tax?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Third, I remind Deputy Rabbitte that there were many occasions when I was lobbied by Deputies, including Deputies in his party, to give work permits to certain companies here that were in breach of labour law and I refused to do so.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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In breach of labour law.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Yes, and I refused to do so.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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That is a very serious allegation.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That is a fact. There were some people running restaurants here who were not paying appropriate wages. There was lobbying to give them work permitsââ
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Tánaiste exempted them. They were not paying tax or insurance.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste to conclude.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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ââand I refused to do so, notwithstanding the lobbying. I will not stand over any company treating its workers disgracefully.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Tánaiste stood over it for three years.
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Someone signed the 1,400 exemptions from tax and PRSI.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Burton, please allow the Tánaiste conclude.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That scheme applied to many companies, as the Deputy is aware, and not exclusively to this company.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I had nothing to do with that, by the way.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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It is three quarters of everything.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Tánaiste to conclude.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will not be lectured by a party that supported an amnesty for tax cheats. The Deputies should not lecture me about anything.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I hope we will have a debate on the Gama Construction report.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Legislation is urgently required to deal with the haemorrhaging from this country of the potential for renewable energy, given that the Airtricity company is pulling out of the Arklow wind-farm with the loss of a project worth between â¬600 million and â¬700 million. The Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill is listed for this term. Will the Tánaiste indicate whether the Government intends to seriously engage with that issue? Its policy on renewable energy is hostile. Will the Government put that wrong to right? When will that legislation be dealt with and will it deal honestly and rigorously with that issue?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That legislation will be brought forward this session.
Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Will it be any good?
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Once again I have listened to the moral indignation of the Tánaiste. She was the major shareholder in a company that has left many small family businessesââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, have you a question appropriate to the Order of Business?
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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ââwith debts of â¬20 million. Will she arrange to have them paid? She was the major shareholder of IFI.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I have never been a shareholder.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That matter does not arise, Deputy Timmins. I call Deputy Durkan.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste talks about Gama Construction but for more than two years she left many small family businesses without payment.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Timmins, allow your colleague to contribute.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste should put moral indignation in its proper place. Her Government was the major shareholder â 51%.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you are out of order. I call Deputy Durkan.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Government was the major shareholder but it has put many of these families out of business.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Timmins, I ask you to resume your seat.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Two years later they have not received any payment. That puts Gama Construction in the ha'penny place.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On promised legislation, in view of the Data Protection Commissioner's report, when will the electronic communications (miscellaneous provisions) Bill come before the House because there are pertinent matters that need to be dealt with? Arising from a matter on which I did not get clarity yesterday, a Cheann Comhairle â the broadcasting Bill â I am anxious that the Bill be brought before the House as a matter of urgency to allow us discuss the free promotion on the national broadcasting serviceââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a matter for a Second Stage debate.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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ââof a fundraising effort for a Fianna Fáil candidate in the European elections.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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If Gerry Ryan wants to buy a ticket in a draw he is free to do so. I am sure he might buy one in the Deputy's draw as well.
Ivor Callely (Dublin North Central, Fianna Fail)
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He is a good guy.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Bill will be brought forward this year.
Joe Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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To provide for the establishment of health information and quality control, may I ask the Tánaiste when the health Bill will be introduced?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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This year.
John Perry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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On promised legislation with regard to the illegal charges, can the Tánaiste clarify whether the grant of administration would have been carried out on probate? Can access be gained to the estate of a deceased person with a view to repayment?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business. I call Deputy Upton.
John Perry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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It is a question on promised legislation. It is a very important point.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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That matter is being examined. I understand the point the Deputy is making.
John Perry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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This is a grey area and I ask the Tánaiste to seek clarification on it.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I will do that.
Mary Upton (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Two years ago I raised the issue of permit schemes and asked if legislation to deal with them was proposed. There is a new scam afoot now, which is the equivalent of a financial chain letter. In that regard, when will the gaming and lotteries Bill be introduced?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Deputy has made a very valid point. There are also scams involving consumers, many of which appear in Sunday newspapers where one is invited to make a long call to be told whether one has the secret number to win a fortune, and the call costs much more than what one would win. There is a need for legislation but I am not sure the gaming and lotteries Bill will deal with that area. Perhaps we should examine it but it is not possible to say when that legislation will be forthcoming.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yesterday, the Taoiseach announced there would be new procedures for dealing with Estimates in the House and that decisions will be made on that within weeks. That is welcome and something we have requested for some time but it is understandable that there might be some scepticism when the Tánaiste's Department, the Department of Health and Children, opted out of the last value for money review process.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, do you have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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How will the Dáil be involved in debating the new procedures being proposed? Will they be presented as decisions or will we have an input into the process of changing this system? There is a lot of experienceââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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It does arise. The taking of Estimates is part of the business of the House. Will the Minister's Department co-operate with this value for money process because she did not co-operate with the previous one?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The second question does not arise.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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I agree that the House should be involved in discussions. The Deputy makes a valid point. The Department of Health and Children will certainly be involved in any value for money audit.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Not just a rubber stamp process.
Richard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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What about the nursing home fiasco and unoccupied buildings?
Dan Boyle (Cork South Central, Green Party)
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What is the status of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service Bill given that personal debt now stands at 120% of disposable income which affects social welfare recipients to the greatest extent? The Bill was published in 2002 and ordered for Second Stage but there is no sign of it coming before the House.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Bill has been ordered for Second Stage. The Deputy will have to discuss it with the Whips.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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When can we expect the reappearance of the Postal (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2001 which was withdrawn about four or five weeks ago? I spoke at 8.30 a.m. to an 83 year old man who said he was living through a nightmare for which the Tánaiste was responsible.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should ask a question on legislation.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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He has been lying on a trolley for the past two days up in Beaumont Hospital's accident and emergency department.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Minister for Health and Children is responsible for his condition.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is out of order.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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He has been living in a nightmare for the last two and a half days in Beaumont Hospital.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should allow the Tánaiste to respond to his question on legislation.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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His elderly wife is deeply upset about his situation, but the Minister for Health and Children says she cannot take action.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy must resume his seat.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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It is unacceptable. The Minister has been in her Department for six or seven months.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Broughan knows he is out of order and I ask him to resume his seat.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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He is right.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I am sick of seeing cases like this arise every day.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Chair will have to show consistency with last week's decision if the Deputy continues.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Ceann Comhairle could throw everyone out.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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What will the Tánaiste do?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The legislation was withdrawn.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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During the debate on the Health Act 2004, the Tánaiste assured the House that we would not be presented with another white elephant like the National Roads Authority and that we would receive answers to questions from her and her Department. When will the Tánaiste reply to health questions which other Members and I have tabled? When will she approve the acute medical unit for South Tipperary General Hospital?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Rabbitte. Those matters do not arise on the Order of Business.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The matter has been with her Department for 12 months. When will the High Court agreement to provide general hospital services in south Tipperary be implemented?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have to find another way to raise the matter.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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The Tánaiste informed the House that the reason she handled the long-stay charges issue and removed the Secretary General of her Department in the manner she did was that she felt she should have been briefed as the new Minister but had not been. Mr. Kelly told the Joint Committee on Health and Children yesterday that he had arranged extensive briefings but that the Tánaiste cancelled them.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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She cancelled the briefings which were arranged.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Callely, wants to say something.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Will the Tánaiste take the opportunity to correct the record of the House and say whether she will give evidence to the joint committee? A serious conflict of evidence exists not just between her predecessor and Mr. Kelly but between her and Mr. Kelly.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Why not? It is on the record of the House.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the matter is before a committee, the House does not debate it until the committee reports.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Is it now the case that matters before a committee are considered to be sub judice? That is a new rule.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a long-standing rule of the House.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Apparently it is now the case that matters before a committee are sub judice.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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Mr. Kelly's comments were the equivalent of saying: "Your house is on fire, but I cannot tell you because your secretary has postponed a meeting."
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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It is so laughable that it is not worthy of comment. We found out about the charges because I asked for the advice of the Attorney General. I spent half a day being briefed by the Department when I went there and met Mr. Kelly every day that I was in Hawkins House. At no stage did anyone seek to tell me about the matter. While it is true that meetings were postponed, it was because I had to deal with legislation in the House, as is frequently the case. The idea that something that had gone on for 26 years was not dealt with before 14 October, six weeks after I went to the Department, because a meeting was cancelled is so laughable that it is not worthy of comment.
Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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If the Department put in place special briefings for her which she did not take, how can the Tánaiste tell the House she was not briefed?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot have a debate on the matter.
Jim O'Keeffe (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Her predecessor would not even read the brief.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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When I asked the man to give me a brief for the Cabinet, he did not even provide the crucial information. That is why Mr. Kelly was removed from his job.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is why he was fired.
Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is why he was promoted.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot have a debate on the matter here.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Does the Tánaiste as Minister for Health and Children intend to take steps to help the young boy, Tristan Dowse, whoââ
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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That does not arise.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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I suggest the Deputy submit a question to the Minister for Health and Children.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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The matter arises under No. 20 on the list of promised legislation to ratify the Hague Convention on the Protection of Children and to provide for the creation of the adoption authority for the protection of adopted children abroad.
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Tánaiste should reply on promised legislation.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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What are we doing to protect one of our citizens who is vulnerable and abandoned?
Rory O'Hanlon (Cavan-Monaghan, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should allow the Tánaiste to answer her question.
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The adoption legislation will come forward in the middle of next year.
Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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What is the Tánaiste doing to protect one of our citizens in the meantime?
Mary Harney (Dublin Mid West, Progressive Democrats)
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The Irish ambassador has been asked to travel to see if he can deal with the issue.