Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)

I thank all Members who made contributions. I listened to them very carefully. Deputy Carthy started off talking about long delays in cases that involve sexual violence. I think Deputies Ward and Ó Murchú mentioned that as well. It can be the case that there are lengthy delays when it comes to complaints made to An Garda Síochána about sexual offences. If we think about what the Garda is required to do and the time it can take for a victim to come forward to An Garda Síochána, sometimes allegations of complaints of sexual violence and sexual assault can be historical, as we have seen with the commission into sexual violence in secondary schools to which I referred earlier. That poses significant challenges for An Garda Síochána. Gardaí have to go off and interview people, try to get information relevant to many years previously, which can result in allegations of sexual violence taking longer to investigate. I am also conscious that when An Garda Síochána gets a complaint of sexual violence, it investigates it very thoroughly. I know everyone in the House is anxious to ensure cases come on for hearing as quickly as possible but An Garda Síochána has to do an investigation, get evidence, statements and put the allegations to the individual against whom allegations have been made. When it has done that, it makes a recommendation on its file and sends the file off to the DPP. The DPP then has to consider the file and make a determination as to whether she believes there is sufficient evidence for a prosecution and the likelihood of success. They are all complicated factors.

Notwithstanding that, we in this House can try to speed the process up by ensuring if those steps are taken promptly, they know a court and judge will be available very quickly thereafter to hear the criminal prosecution. That is in effect what we are doing today. However, it is important to point out we cannot speed up every aspect of the criminal justice system because some of it is dependent upon evidence being gathered by An Garda Síochána and consideration of a file by the DPP. That in some cases takes time. There are other examples, which I am increasingly impressed with, where we see a criminal offence take place, the Garda arrests take place fairly rapidly after that, a file is completed by the Garda and we are now getting on to prosecutions sometimes between 12 and 18 months after the criminal act. We have sometimes seen that in the Criminal Courts of Justice. That is a very fast return when it comes to getting cases before the courts to have them determined promptly. I commend people in this House who speak up for survivors. I speak up for survivors and victims whenever I get that opportunity. From the courts' point of view and from our point of view in terms of legislation, it has to be recognised as well that we have to ensure there is a fair trial. We cannot take legislative steps that will result in the fairness of the trial being brought into question. I know everyone in this House agrees with me. Deputy Carthy also talked about how we have the lowest number of judges per capita in Europe. I think Deputy Callaghan referred to that as well. We need more judges, which is the purpose of the legislation. However, I urge a sense of caution when comparing Irish judicial numbers with what is referred to as EU judicial numbers. In the civil law system on the European Continent, they would count as judges people in this jurisdiction we would probably view as prosecutors. One has to be careful when looking at the bald statistics that make us look as though we are a complete outlier; the difference in our legal system and categorisation of people as judges can result in those numbers standing out significantly. Notwithstanding that, we certainly need more judges appointed.

Deputy Carthy, and I think Deputies Ward and Ó Murchú, also referred to Tusla. Tusla is not within my statutory responsibility. I am not saying that to try to avoid discussing it. It has a very difficult task. One of my colleagues made a contribution about how we only hear from Tusla when issues have arisen that go wrong. We are never going to hear of things that have gone well from Tusla's point of view. I think people will agree Tusla has an extremely challenging task. Regrettably, there are thousands of children who fall within its responsibility. When something goes wrong, it is held to account for it but we need to recognise the extent of the challenge it has and that when it provides a service that goes well, we just generally do not hear about it.

Deputy Carthy also spoke about the gambling regulator which is being dealt with in the legislation.

Deputy Ward spoke about the elimination of violence against women. I want to bring to his attention that I got approval from Government a couple of weeks ago in respect of a new sexual offences Bill. That will change the law on consent for rape and sexual assault. At present, the law in respect of consent is that if the accused honestly believed they had consent, that is sufficient. That is a subjective test - the person thought the woman was consenting. That test will be changed and we are going to introduce an objective test that will be reasonably based. It will be an objective, reasonable test. That will improve the circumstance of victims who come before the courts.

I disagree with Deputy Ó Murchú when he said the justice system is not fit for purpose. Every day of the week in this country, whether it is the District Court, the Circuit Court, the High Court or indeed the appeal courts, justice is being administered by judges.

There are practitioners in there and we can see it in our newspapers every day, people being brought before the courts. The system operates very efficiently and effectively and it is important that it does. It is one of the arms of government. We have the executive arm, here we have the legislative arm but there is also the judicial arm. It is probably the least resourced of those three arms of government. It does a job on a daily basis and does it well in terms of the challenges it faces. It is important for us to ensure we provide greater supports to them and that is what we are doing today. I welcome the fact every Member of the House has agreed further judges will improve greater efficiencies.

Deputy Kelly asked me a couple of questions on improvements in the courts and resources. He asked about the capital project for the courts. I want to try to ensure we have capital available to build new courthouses. A lot of new courthouses were built in recent years but the main priority is to get Hammond Lane up and running. There is also a commitment for a new courthouse in Tralee. These are just two examples where I want to see a continuation of progress. Deputy Kelly also spoke about An Garda Síochána. He mentioned several measures I mentioned to him about six months ago. They are coming. They are within the criminal justice and civil law miscellaneous provisions Bill, a different miscellaneous provisions Bill to this one. It is one I hope to be able to introduce in the next couple of months and I have approval from Government for it. At present, it is being drafted in the Attorney General's office and the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to the Government. Those issues regarding digitalisation and freeing up garda resources from the courts will be available there. On the issue of garda presenters, I hear very much what Deputy Kelly has said but before I do anything like that, there has to be resources in the DPP to take over the significant amount of work the gardaí do at present very efficiently and effectively.

Deputy Callaghan welcomed the Bill and I note what she said about judges. I have dealt with that previously with regard to their numbers. Deputy Gannon made some contributions in respect of community service orders. It will also be the case in that miscellaneous provisions Bill I hope to bring forward in the forthcoming months that there will be a new statutory requirement in respect of community service orders. There is now going to be a situation in place where if a judge imposes a sentence of up two years, they will have to consider a community service order. The amount of that community service order can also increase from 240 hours to 480.

For the record, the Probation Service does an excellent job. It probably does not get much recognition for the work it does but it does a huge amount of work, particularly in the area of children who come before the courts. I had a meeting the other day with senior officials from An Garda Síochána who are responsible for responding to youth crime. Again, we do not hear about it but there are some very positive results from the juvenile liaison officers and in diverting people from the path of crime.

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