Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)

I thank the three Deputies for their useful contributions. Obviously, they were all present for the justice committee meeting yesterday where we covered much of the ground in respect of international protection accommodation services.

Deputy Carthy started with reference to the issue of IPAS. All of us here - Deputies Gannon, Kelly and Carthy and myself - agree that far too much money is being spent on accommodation for international protection applicants. My policy objective is to try to drive down the amount of money we are spending on it. It is not sustainable in the long run when we consider that, this year, we are going to spend €1.2 billion on IPAS. I would love to have that money available to deal with other issues that have been identified by Deputy Carthy, such as criminal legal aid, civil legal aid and the criminal injuries compensation tribunal, CICT.

In terms of the objective and as I said yesterday, the real driver of the cost of IPAS is the number of people within the system and the length of time they stay therein. I gave the statistics yesterday as to the number of people claiming asylum in Ireland, both prior to and during Covid-19. In the three years since then, from 2022 to 2024, we saw 45,000 people arrive and claim asylum. Our accommodation provision in IPAS went from 7,000 to 33,000 people who we are accommodating at present.

I note what Deputy Carthy said about people making a lot of money out of this. That is the case, but regrettably, because we do not have State-owned accommodation, we have to pay people to provide this accommodation. My objective is to try to ensure that we reduce the amount of money we are spending on it. That is why we proceeded with the purchase of Citywest. To answer Deputy Kelly's question directly, the State intends to make other purchases similar to the purchase of Citywest. I am conscious that we probably will not get a facility of equal size to Citywest. However, it is necessary that we purchase more sites so that I can achieve the policy objective, which is that, by 2028, we will have 14,000 State-owned accommodation units for those seeking asylum. I want to get there because, as I said yesterday, the cost of accommodating an asylum applicant in private accommodation at present is €30,000 per year. The cost of accommodating him or her in State-owned accommodation is €12,000 per year. There is a clear saving in providing State accommodation as opposed to providing accommodation in the private sector.

I note what Deputy Carthy said about criminal legal aid and civil legal aid. I am in negotiations with the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation with respect to trying to get further increases in the criminal legal aid sphere. There has been a well-motivated campaign on this issue, seeking full restoration of criminal legal aid fees. I am also conscious, however, of the limitations of the civil legal aid system that operates. I got the report and the minority report from Mr. Justice Frank Clarke and his committee. I cannot give any commitments in respect of it.

Regarding the criminal injuries compensation tribunal, Deputy Carthy correctly pointed out the significance of the Blanco judgment. The reason that man got such a small award of €645 from the CICT is that the compensation tribunal does not compensate people for pain and suffering. All one will get from the CICT is compensation for material financial loss. It is very limited in what it provides for. One of the cases being considered at present is whether there is an obligation on the State to provide compensation for pain and suffering. It potentially could increase the liability of the State hugely. Obviously, that has to be taken into account.

I listened carefully to Deputy Gannon, who spoke about youth diversion. We have excellent youth diversion programmes in this country. Later on this year or early next year, I hope to be able to say that we have rolled out youth diversion programmes in every part of the country. They do outstanding work. They do not get enough credit. It is the same case with the Probation Service. The Probation Service is an entity within my Department that does superb work.

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