Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)

I thank all my colleagues for their contributions. It is also notable and unusual that everyone who spoke is very much in favour of the legislation, with full support across the House. I welcome that. It is also important that people who are involved in criminality and generating wealth from it, know that there is unanimity in this House in our opposition to them and in our desire to combat them.

I will deal with some of the issues that were raised by colleagues. Deputy Mark Ward spoke about white-collar crime. It is the case that CAB does go after this type of crime. CAB does not only go after people involved in drug dealing or other such activities. Deputy Ward also spoke about the community safety fund, as did many other colleagues. There is a desire for the money to go back into the areas that are most affected by it and there is an application process. It may be the case that some communities are better informed when it comes to filling out application forms. That could be a legitimate comment in respect of the matter. If that is so, those communities need to be informed about the fund. People in this House and elsewhere would be happy to assist them in filling out the application forms. Deputy Ward also asked about a mini CAB. In fairness, to CAB, it goes after people in terms of assets which are the proceeds of crime, even if they are amounts in the low thousands of euro. CAB does not have a hierarchy that says it should only go after the millionaire criminals. It does target the lifestyle of rich criminals. CAB does a lot of observation work and it looks at people's lifestyles. A lot of work goes on under the surface that we do not hear about or discuss in this House.

Deputy Ward also spoke about youth diversion. We need to ensure that we have as many youth diversion programmes operating as possible. Later this year, I hope to be in a situation where every area will have a functioning youth diversion programme, powered by the Probation Service.

Deputy Quinlivan referred to the feuds in Limerick. It is worth noting that there were significant feuds in Limerick before and the gardaí got on top of them and dealt with them. CAB played a significant role in that as well. Regrettably, it is probably always the case that when one crime gang is got rid of, someone else will rise up and take their place. The important thing is that the Garda will be on their case and CAB will be following them closely after that. The message should go out that it is a pointless activity getting involved in crime. It may generate money in the short term but in the long term it will result in imprisonment and a person's assets being seized and a very negative reflection on their life.

Deputy Kelly made some comments about the role of Ruairí Quinn in the proceeds of crime legislation. I am beginning to see now that success has many fathers. I mentioned John O'Donoghue and Deputy Ward mentioned Nora Owen. I commend the Government and Members of the Oireachtas back in 1996 for coming up with this innovative idea. Deputy Kelly also spoke about Brendan Howlin's legislation from some years ago, the Proceeds of Crime (Gross Human Rights Abuses) Bill 2020.

I have not had an opportunity to look at it. I would have thought it would be fairly difficult to try to transpose a provision such as this into Irish law. My understanding from listening to Deputy Kelly is that it is legislation that would permit the Criminal Assets Bureau to seize assets belonging to other countries present in this jurisdiction if those countries were involved in an abuse of human rights. The legislation dealing with seizing assets from criminals in this country is difficult enough, as we can see from the complexity of it, and I am not in a position to start going around seizing assets in respect of human rights abuses around the world. However, I look forward to seeing the amendment Deputy Kelly said he would bring forward in respect of it and, to use Civil Service speak, I would say it will be a very challenging amendment. We will look at it in due course.

I thank Deputy Devlin for his contribution. Something I thought about when I was listening to Deputy Devlin was the fact that, earlier this week, there was the decision of the Supreme Court on Routeback. This was a situation where the Supreme Court overturned a decision of the Court of Appeal that refused to allow new evidence to be heard in respect of a proceeds of crime application. From a brief perusal of it, I think the reason was that the Supreme Court said there was new evidence. We are entitled statutorily to change the rules, as we are doing, to say the matter cannot be opened up again.

Deputy Barry Ward mentioned we needed a consolidated version of Bills that come before the House. It is difficult enough to prepare a Bill without having a consolidated version of very large legislation. If people are looking for this, the Law Reform Commission frequently publishes consolidated updated versions of legislation. The Proceeds of Crime Act on the Law Reform Commission's website includes all the most recent amendments. If they are enacted into law, these amendments will be included also.

Deputy Ward also said we had to exercise caution when it came to freezing orders. Certainly when we look at the legislation, fair procedures are built into it. It has withstood constitutional challenge by various persons. Much of this legislation was tested in the Supreme Court shortly after its enactment in 1996 and it was found to be constitutional.

Deputy Ó Murchú echoed the point made by Deputy Kelly on trying to use the legislation for the purpose of human rights abuses. The best way to deal with issues such as this is through the sanctions imposed at EU level. That is how we deal with sanctions and freezing of assets belonging to certain persons from Russia. It can only be done when there is agreement at EU level. Deputy Ó Murchú also mentioned the issue of cocaine that, regrettably, is prevalent throughout our society.

Deputy Gannon welcomed the Bill. He referred to it as a smart piece of legislation. He spoke about addiction. Addiction is the real consequence of the criminal activity of people delivering and dealing in drugs. It has had disastrous consequences for young people who get caught up in addiction. I regret to say, however, that no part of the country is immune to this addiction and every constituency of every TD in the House has addiction issues. I have seen it myself from visiting addiction services. Deputy Gannon also spoke about having a mini-CAB. I repeat the point I made in response to Deputy Mark Ward, namely, that CAB goes after small amounts of assets if it believes they are the proceeds of crime.

Deputy Kenny mentioned how people in Ireland feared crime. This is true but we need to be balanced in our understanding of it. Ireland is, relative to other countries, a safe country. There will be crime in a country with a successful economy. When money is available, regrettably, people will fall for the attraction of drugs, although they should not do so.

In terms of proceeds of crime applications before the courts, there are very many of them. It is not a case that there is a small number of applications. I had a look at the legal diary as I was listening to colleagues and today there was a proceeds of crime list in the High Court with 22 items. A lot of work is going on in respect of the Criminal Assets Bureau.

Deputy Gogarty welcomed the Bill and asked whether the properties that were frozen could be rented out. In practical terms, when a section 3 freezing order is made, the property is sold. Then the money is collected by the receiver and the money becomes the issue in dispute. It is the practice of CAB after freezing an asset to sell it to liquidate it, if I can use this expression, to get the money. Then there is a dispute about who is entitled to the money, and that is determined by the courts.

Deputy Paul Lawless said gardaí in Mayo were struggling. That was not my experience of gardaí in Mayo when I was there doing the Colm Horkan run a couple of weeks ago. I saw a great sense of community spirit from the gardaí in Charlestown and I believe it operates throughout Mayo. Deputy Lawless mentioned, as did Deputy Michael Collins, that he wanted to see more gardaí on the streets. The biggest problem I face as the Minister for justice is that, everywhere I go, people say they want to see more gardaí. I am limited in the numbers I have. It is my job to try to recruit more. I cannot start going around saying I will give a couple of gardaí to certain constituencies. I do not get involved in that. It is a matter for the Commissioner. It would be inappropriate if a Minister for justice started going around directing where gardaí should go.

Deputy Michael Collins spoke about how we had lost the war on drugs. I disagree with this. The alternative is that we just put up our hands and say we will legalise drugs and let them come in. The addiction levels would increase significantly. We have seen experiments in other parts of the world, such as America and Canada. They have legalised drugs and it has been a disaster for them. The number of psychotic episodes for young people has shot through the roof and addiction levels have increased. It has become a bigger problem. We are better off having it criminalised.

I do not have an answer for Deputy Collins on CCTV but local authorities are responsible for the operation of it.

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