Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)

I also welcome this legislation. I hope it would be of interest to Deputy Gould in the context of the lecture he was giving people here.

I wish to declare that I am a part of a company that employs up to 25 people. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle is well aware of this aspect, particularly as she was self-employed for years. Many small businesspeople are ag déanamh a ndícheall i gcónaí. They are doing their very best to keep the doors open.

This legislation is welcome, but, from an employer's perspective, I have to highlight the amount of legislation, changes and EU directives that have come about in the past 20 years. When I started in business a daichead bliain ó shin, actually it is 41 years, in 1982 or 1983, it was simple enough at that time. We did our books, had our account and everything else. Now, I everything must be right. I am not saying I want shortcuts, because I do not. For every five employees that people have now, you would need to have a secretary to deal with all the paperwork in light of the reams of legislation involved. It is impossible to understand these requirements without having a quasi-legal insight or a draft of the legislation. It is not possible to keep up with it. It is very onerous, and this is turning many people off being self-employed. People who are self-employed are walking away. I have seen people who have left and gone to Canada and Australia. The cost of living and of houses are both high over there too, but they can run a business, have employees and abide by the relevant legislation. They are able to make a profit and come home here and try to set up a business. We want to encourage this too. The bureaucracy here is crazy.

I refer to what happened to the Debenhams workers and the staff of some of the bigger co-ops. In my case, the local co-op started out as south Tipperary farmers' small co-ops. It became Avonmore, then Glanbia and is now Tirlán. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle will be well aware of this in her area too. It is now a huge company. There is also Kerry Group, and a couple of others. I was forever praising the likes of the Mullinahone co-op and the Tipperary co-op, now Arrabawn Tipperary co-op. The Tipperary co-op ran into difficulties recently and had to amalgamate. Its workers are being displaced due to that amalgamation. I salute the board members of the co-op down through the decades who held the reins tightly. The co-op got in these whiz kids, however, and they went mad with borrowing. They got themselves into major trouble. The end of it is that the co-op has lost its identity. Tipperary co-op is no more, with the resulting impact on 30 or 40 employees in a town in an area of west County Tipperary that has been ravaged by unemployment and a lack of investment.

Deputy Nolan referred to several reports by PwC and others. No matter what goes on for this Government, the only answer it seems to have is to get PwC or some of the other big finance houses involved. There are only a couple of them and they have tentacles in everything. We had them as well. I remember when these companies gave a clear bill of health to the banks in 2007 and 2008 before the crash. There is a kind of a cosy circle and arrangement whereby these people are wheeled in all the time to give advice. Whatever advice you want to get, they will give it. Many good employees are working in those companies too, and young graduates. As I said, however, they have questions to answer too about the crash, its aftermath and the continuing situation in our country.

Employees must be protected. The Ceann Comhairle will know about and is very interested in the area of self-employment and employing people. It is a two-way street. If you treat your employees with dignity, respect and good manners, then you will have positive employer-employee relationships. I refer as well to paying the proper rates of PRSI and the proper insurance schemes and whatever else for them, and also including health and safety. All the other legislation must be looked at too.

We then have the big companies that have bogus self-employed people. I met a legion of RTÉ officials leaving the complex. There were about ten or 12 of them. They were shaking hands and saying they missed me at the committee meeting earlier. I am not on that committee any more. Anyway, I refer to the number of bogus self-employed people in RTÉ. It was with the knowledge of Ministers for at least a decade and a half, and that of the Department of Finance and the Department of employment. Strange happenings were going on out there and are still going on out there. There have also been court cases and settlements have been made. Who pays for these settlements? It is taxpayers who are funding RTÉ.

Deputy Nolan spoke about the ordinary punter and the small businesses, and keeping na doirse oscailt sna siopaí, óstáin and the restaurants and everyplace else. They must be supported. It is vital that they are supported. One way of supporting them would be to give them a level playing field and some space and a bit of encouragement. There are organisations like the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA. I have said countless times in this House what I think about NERA.

Its name should be changed to a support organisation for employers. They walk in flashing the card at a minute past midnight insisting on a different wage structure per hour for employees. This has happened to businesses in my county and every other county. They should be in during the day asking the management team, "How can we help you?"

These are tough times for those in business. I see that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has taken over in the Chair. As a self-employed businessman, he understands this intimately. These are tough times. There are legions of officials - columns of them - coming along with different identification and flashing badges at people when they might be at their lowest. They might be missing employees through sickness or something. They might have a funeral group coming into a hotel or something else might have happened. These people are on travel expenses, driving around the country. NERA now has five different offices in various regions.

As I said, these people need to be reined in and asked chun cabhrú leis na gnóthaí beaga, to help the businesses. I am not saying anyone should be breaking the law in this area, but they should be there to help and support these businesses, not all the time waving the big stick and flashing the card. If you go in and say a word to them and make a complaint, you are in another situation.

I want to turn to Sinn Féin and Deputy Gould, with the permission of the Chair. You were not here, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Deputy Gould was lecturing people for not being here. I do not see many Sinn Féin people here either. He does not understand - the Ceann Comhairle had to point it out to him - that there are committees sitting and there are lots of side meetings going on. Those in Sinn Féin have the answer to everything but can do nothing. They were missing in action during the five years of the previous Government. They went into hiding and paid the price for that in the general election. Their behaviour here is that they joined in with other groups - left, left and more left.

Then there are those in the so-called know-everything party, Independent Ireland. It is a wonder that they do not have the Saor Éire flag flying over them as well. They tried to deny us speaking rights. Deputy Nolan, who can speak for herself, and I are Independents. We are not in any group. They wanted to muzzle us. They do not like what we say because we tell the truth.

See this speech in context