Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)

We talk about Gaza every week in this Chamber. It is right and proper that we do. One can get emotional about it because every time a child dies it is a harrowing experience, but one has to look at it in a more balanced way in terms of trying to get something done. That is what this Bill is attempting to do; it is trying to put pressure on the Irish Government to make the Central Bank of Ireland do something that the State and our European partners do not want us to do. I will get to this in a while, but sometimes, even if something is, in the Government's own view, not technically possible, that does not mean that it should not be tried to the point where it is proven to be technically impossible. I take on board some of what the Minister said earlier in terms of the barriers that may exist to this Bill being passed. I fundamentally disagree, however, with the Government not supporting the Bill being brought to Committee Stage and further Stages, where it could be amended to be workable within the existing parameters of European Union law or ready to be enacted at such a point when the European Union does so decide. At least we would have an Act ready to go.

The figures keep adding up. As of today, 56,000 people have been killed, comprising more than 54,000 Palestinians and 1,706 Israelis, many of them civilians, since this phase of this never-ending conflict commenced on October 7 2023. In terms of civilian deaths, the estimates from independent sources such as journalists, academics and various sources are that 80% of those killed on the Palestinian side were civilians. Then there are the employees of UNRWA and other humanitarian aid workers. A couple of Irish diplomats were nearly killed recently. The UN Commissioner for Human Rights said 80% of Palestinians killed were civilians and added that 70% of the Palestinians killed in residential buildings or similar types of housing were woman and children. They were not combatants or proxy fighters who volunteered for the cause to stand alongside Hamas militants just so the Israelis could bomb them; they were innocent civilians.

As I have said before, we have long since passed the threshold of genocide. I described it in my last contribution, and I am standing by my words, as another holocaust because it is, as I said, a sanitised, mass extermination over a period. Sometimes, the information can be slightly wrong. In my previous speech I mentioned that up to 14,000 babies were at risk of being killed, many of them within the next 48 hours.

I had read the conflicting reports regarding the figures. Tom Fletcher, though, did get a lot of criticism because he said they were all going to die imminently. The Israelis jumped on this and said it was fake news and a lie. It was not a lie but the correction of information that said there would be about 70,000 cases of acute malnutrition of children aged six months to 59 months between April 2025 and March 2026, including 14,100 severe cases, and a severe case is at risk of dying at any stage. Although Mr. Fletcher was not absolutely accurate in terms of the 48 hours, the lives of those 14,000 babies are still at risk, as one of my colleagues mentioned in this Chamber earlier. The Israeli Government - or regime, call it what you will, because it is democratically elected but is certainly not living up to the aspirations of any rational democracy - jumps on this. It paints the Irish as the biggest Jew haters in Europe if not the world. The facts, however, are that since the establishment of the Israel State, the Irish people have been among some of the greatest supporters of Israel until it turned into a pariah state.

I point out that there is a need for balance and I always feel obliged to put it on the record when I am talking that we must look at different angles from different sides. Yes, therefore, Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organisation that has killed people for being LGTB, for example, and wants to see the Israeli people and the entire Israeli State destroyed. I and others have no truck with regimes like Hamas. Equally, though, there are fundamentalist settlers in the West Bank. The Israeli State has facilitated them in planting themselves in different parts of the West Bank in such a way that makes the Palestinian State, consisting of the West Bank joined with Gaza, in a two-state solution more and more unviable. It is doing that because of its fundamentalist religious beliefs. It is religious fundamentalists who hold the strings of the Israeli Government.

Equally, we have our own fundamentalists. I remember back in the times of the Troubles in the North where we had republicans and loyalists using proxy bombs. They would get individuals by threatening their families with death and strap them to a van with explosives in it, usually to try to blow up British soldiers. They said that was a legitimate cause. The loyalist side had other legitimate causes, such as an attempt on the life of a garda, for example. This was all done in the belief that their supreme cause was worth taking innocent lives. That type of fundamentalism did eventually evolve into the Irish peace process, and credit is due to all those involved, including Sinn Féin, whose members proposed this Bill. The peace process in Ireland highlighted that there were differing views, some of which may never be totally reconciled. The people involved, though, did come to an accommodation. It was similar with the South African peace and reconciliation process, where different sides had to come to an accommodation. As referred to, it was also similar in Rwanda.

I am talking about all this because this war, this conflict, which has now morphed into this genocide on the Israeli side, is never-ending. It will only stop when the fundamentalists on both sides realise that it is a zero-sum game and that all they are going to do is to keep killing, whatever about claims from anyone that their argument may be purer than somebody else's. It is a fact, as I said before, that more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed throughout the lifetime of this conflict, which has now almost lasted a century. Any life, though, is a precious one. This is why I will always condemn the attacks of 7 October, I will always say I love the Israeli people and I recognise the right of the Israeli State to exist. Jesus, though, as well as loving the Palestinians, we have to feel for them. We have to do everything in our power as a State because this is a moral obligation.

Going back to what the Minister said about the Bill, the Central Bank of Ireland was recently quoted as saying it approving a bond prospectus does not endorse the issuer or the securities, that it is just a little technicality. I forget which speaker - it might have been Deputy Nash, but I am not 100% certain - mentioned Israel designating us as a home country. Perhaps this is because we are English-speaking - chomh maith lenár dteanga dhúchais eile, an Ghaeilge - or maybe it is because Israel wanted to see us squirm as a designated country given that we had called them out before. Either way, we have gone from being seen as a home financial base of choice for the sale of bonds to one of the biggest anti-Israeli countries in Europe. We are not anti-Israel, but we are anti-Israeli policy and anti-Israeli massacring of innocent civilians.

In this context, why can the Minister not facilitate this Bill moving to Committee Stage? Why can it not be moved even further onwards and passed, with a provision inserted that everything would be subject to the European Union making that decision? This would send out a strong and powerful message that we are good to go when it is legally and technically possible to enact the legislation. If the Government truly believes the Bill cannot be enacted, at least bring it to that point. It must be remembered that we also have a President who can agree or disagree with the advice of the Attorney General and the Council of State and decide whether legislation passed is legitimate. For all his righteous condemnation of Israeli atrocities over the years, the one thing President Higgins upholds more than anything else is our Constitution and the rule of law. I have absolutely no doubt that the President and his advisers, if asked, would make the right decision and the right call on this matter.

We should not end this legislation prematurely. We should let it go through. Let us have the debate, amend the Bill as best the Government can see fit and then have it ready to be enacted if necessary and possible. To do otherwise does, unfortunately, lend credence to the view that for all its praise in terms of the Court of Justice and the fact that the Israeli Government continues to criticise our Government - I see the Ambassador has left here - we are still giving the impression we are a little bit of a paper tiger. We are talking about the action of the Central Bank of Ireland on behalf of the European Union. We have a little bit of clout. Let us see how far we can push it. This is why I commend this Bill. I am not a legal expert in terms of whether it is fully enforceable, but I commend it. Let us see where it goes. Is there any reason the Minister cannot do that? Go raibh maith agat.

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