Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Aontaím leis an méid atá ráite ag an Teachta Ó Murchú ó thaobh na ATMs seo agus an chaoi nach bhfuil seirbhís trí Ghaeilge á cur ar fáil. Ba chóir go mbeidh gá seirbhís trí Ghaeilge a chur ar fáil. Tá a fhios againn gur féidir é seo a dhéanamh. Rinneadh é roimhe seo. Tá a fhios againn, nuair a théimid go dtí ATM, go bhfuilimid ábalta seirbhís a fháil i go leor teangacha difriúla, ach níl teanga dhúchais ár dtíre ar fáil iontu. Tá an fhadhb seo i gceantair Ghaeltachta fosta. Ba chóir go dtarlóidh sé. Feictear é sin ar fud na cruinne. Nuair théitear thar lear, is féidir an tseirbhís a fháil i go leor teangacha. Ba chóir go mbeidh seo sa reachtaíocht sa dóigh is go mbeidh dualgas ár dteanga dhúchais ar fáil sna ATMs fosta.

Ó thaobh an Bhille seo, aontaím lena chúlra, an gá atá leis agus an méid atá sé ag iarraidh a bhaint amach. Is é sin go mbeidh an pobal ábalta airgead tirim a fháil ina phobal féin. Is é rud nach bhfuil a fhios againn faoin reachtaíocht seo ná na coinníollacha a leagfaí síos. Beidh sé fágtha ag an Aire le cinntiú cén codán den daonra ar cóir go mbeidh in ann airgead tirim a fháil as ATM taobh istigh de chúig chiliméadar, ach níl na figiúirí sin sa reachtaíocht seo. Tuigim an fáth nach bhfuil siad sa reachtaíocht. B'fhéidir go n-athróidh na figiúirí amach anseo. Rud nach bhfuil soiléir ach oiread ná cén cineál seirbhíse a bhfaighfí an t-airgead tirim as. I go leor áiteanna, faightear an t-airgead tirim ón ngréasán istigh sa bhalla. B'fhéidir gur banc a bhí ann nó banc a druideadh. I go leor áiteanna eile, faightear an t-airgead tirim ón ngréasán i siopa nó áit inteacht eile agus níl an tseirbhís sin ar fáil ach amháin taobh istigh de amanna faoi leith.

I welcome both the publication of the legislation and the opportunity to contribute to this debate. We will go through the Bill in detail when it comes before the select committee, as we did with the general scheme during pre-legislative scrutiny. At that stage, I raised a number of issues to do with access to cash. I signalled quite a while ago that we were preparing legislation in respect of access to cash. I am glad that a number of months after this the Government committed to bringing forward its own legislation. This is really welcome. In the North and in Britain, legislation on access to cash has already been passed.

Access to cash is really important and as we look at the deficiencies of this Bill I will deal with some of the issues of concern. One thing that is not included in the Bill is the right to use the cash when there is access to it. A number of entities have moved into the cashless environment. Deputy Ó Murchú talked about challenges in the context of senior Gaelic football games. We also saw the attempts on the part of the company responsible for administering the national car test to move to cashless operations. The move in that regard was subsequently reversed. There are many businesses, including a number within a short walk of here, that do not accept cash.

It is a serious issue that while there is a legislative right to access the cash, there is no right to be able to use it in the context of retailers accepting it as legal tender. I am glad that an increasing number of business entities in my community have signs up saying that it is important to use cash. The reasons for that relate, among other things, to the fees people are charged for tap-and-go transactions. Being able to tap and go is very convenient. I am sure all of us in this House use the facility, but there are hidden charges relating to it. There is a gap in the legislation in this regard. It is not just retailers that have moved to cashless operations. We have seen banks, including those that were majority-owned by the State, move or attempt to move to a cashless scenario. If someone had spoken about cashless banks in the House ten years ago, they would have been laughed at, but that is where things have gone. The Tánaiste, Deputy Micheál Martin, as spoken about the inevitability of a cashless society. I completely disagree with him. We now have this legislation, and I welcome that there is a trend in the context of more people availing of online facilities, tap-and-go transactions and, indeed, banking with entities that do not have facilities where cash can be accessed, whether it is Revolut or other companies of that nature. Part of that trend is down to convenience, but we have to recognise that for 20% of the population, cash is king and their preferred method of transacting business.

We also have to recognise that while some people may talk about the importance of cash for elderly people, this is probably a misrepresentation of those in that category because all the statistics show that the defining factors when it comes to dependency on cash are poverty, low incomes and people trying to manage their budgets. It is important that people not only have access to cash but also that they can use it in the retail outlets of their choice.

The legislation will allow the Minister to define the percentage of the population that will have access to cash within a 5 km radius. During pre-legislative scrutiny, I raised the issue that many of the ATMs in our communities are located in banks, on the premises of banks that have closed down or on the walls of other premises. Many of them are in retail outlets and stores that have particular opening times. When we look at access to cash, particularly in the context of the night-time economy, it is important that we are not just talking about access to cash during day-time hours. For example, if we have a community that has access to cash but at ATMs in two of the local supermarkets - in my community we are blessed to have that - it is important that people have access to cash after 8 p.m. Therefore, that needs to be part of the consideration. It is not just a case of having an ATM; people mus have access to that ATM all the way through. As I said, that is particularly important for the night-time economy. It is also important in the context of allowing people to go about their busy lives by having access cash. This is something that we need to deal with in the legislation.

Surveys have shown that 37% of people visit their bank branch on a monthly basis. Obviously, this has become more difficult as an increasing number of branches have closed down. I understand that the aim is to designate number of ATMs that currently exist as the number that will be contemplated by the legislation. I am seeking clarity from the Government on this. I also ask for clarity as to whether this legislation will allow banks to close down ATMs. I do not think that is a good thing. If there are two ATMs within 4 km of each other then, under this legislation, there is potential to close down one of them. I ask the Minister of State to elaborate on that matter when replying.

Has the Department given consideration to the right to use cash? Now that we are providing a right to access cash with a certain number of kilometres, are we going to legislate for the right for people to use cash in retail outlets?

There is a lot of detail to go through on Committee Stage. It is important that we have very clear rules on how much of the population can access cash within a distance of 5 km, which is what the legislation allows for. There is a problem in this regard. Let us consider the example of people in my constituency in rural west Donegal. Let us say that the figure is set at 97%, which is the current figure. If a person is one of the 3% who does not have access to an ATM within a distance of 5 km and has to travel 15 km to access an ATM, what will happen if the latter has been closed down because of the rules set out in the legislation? That is not a good scenario. My point is that we should legislate to protect what is already in place, to have very clear rules in respect of access to cash that will be reviewed, to clearly define what are 24-hour ATMs as opposed to ATMs that are only accessible to the public within defined periods and to look at strengthening the rights of consumers to use cash when they have it in their pockets.

On access to cash, anybody who works in the community sector with groups, is involved with the Scouts, organises bake sales or whatever, knows how difficult it can be to go to a bank with a load of coins. To be able to withdraw cash is one thing but being able to bring coins to a bank is a serious issue. Consideration should be given to this.

If we do not get a handle on fraud, more people will suffer. I made the point that the Government does not have a fraud strategy. Such a strategy has been requested for five years as a priority, but we still do not have one. The Government has not empowered the Garda and the banks to share real-time data for a fraud database. If fraud continues on its current trajectory, more people will use cash, because having money in a bank, in an online system, is not safe anymore. We know that is the case for many people because of fraudulent activity, whether it is account takeovers or the scams that are being carried out. The Government must give greater priority to dealing with the issue of fraud.

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