Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputies for their contributions. I am not able to accept Deputy Sherlock's amendment but I hope that what I am about to say will explain why. The impact of what he is proposing and where he has located the amendment may be wider than he intends. Perhaps I can also provide some words of comfort.

As we recall from last week, the purpose of this Bill is twofold. One element is to ensure that Tusla's early years inspectorate has appropriate enforcement powers across all childcare settings and not just childminders. The second element is to remove the exemption from regulation for childminders under Part VIIA. The proposed amendment we are talking about covers all childcare settings. The section puts Tusla's enforcement pathway on a legislative footing and aims to deal with some of the limitations of the existing regulatory and enforcement powers of the early years inspectorate. On Second Stage, there was broad support for strengthening the powers of the early years inspectorate, particularly in those very rare but really serious cases where we need to empower the early years inspectorate to act more quickly.

On the Deputy's amendment, the reference to a risk of harm in the amendment I am bringing forward is proceeded by reference to "significant concern". It is about the persistent nature of the risk. It cannot be read in isolation. These elements must be present before an improvement notice is issued. It cannot just be a risk. It must be a risk of significant concern. An improvement notice can only be given where "there is an issue of significant concern that is of such a nature that if it persists it will, or is likely to, pose a risk of harm to a child attending the service". An issue that is not of significant concern and that is not likely to persist could not give rise to an improvement notice. That is the standard we are setting.

In our view, the level of risk in a private home is not an appropriate standard for assessing risk in very different contexts. While it might be relevant when assessing the level of risk in a childminder's home, it is not relevant when assessing risk or ways of reducing risk in a large crèche or after-school service. Again, this section of the Bill relates to all early years services. Following the amendments to the definitions in the section, that will include preschool services, school-age services and childminders. Deputy Sherlock was probably seeking to make a distinction between childminders and other services but, as a result of how my amendment is structured and how his amendment fits into it, what he is proposing will reduce the standard for all childcare services. I do not think we should be using the standard of the average risk in a house when dealing with large early years services. For those reasons, I am not in a position to accept that amendment.

During the Second Stage debate, we talked about the Bill, the changes it will bring about and the regulations. The regulations are obviously linked but they are a separate document. They have been subject to quite a lengthy consultation process. On Second Stage last week, I said very clearly that there will be changes to the regulations. It is not a pro forma consultation and there will be changes. After last week's Second Stage debate, my officials met with Childminding Ireland and went through each of the regulations in detail. From what I have heard, it was a good meeting. We said that we would be flagging some changes relating to some issues and we were able to give clarity to Childminding Ireland on others and to clear up some misconceptions. Yesterday, I met Childminding Ireland myself. We did the same thing. We went through all of the various regulations. Again, that was a good meeting and we were able to give clarifications there. We are looking for some further engagement, perhaps by way of a direct focus group with childminders picked by Childminding Ireland and some site visits. We will literally go to a childminder, show him or her the rules and ask how they are going to work around the house.

The Department absolutely wants childminders to continue to operate. They are an extremely important part of the wider offering of childcare services within our country. I am very clear that they are distinct from centre-based services for various reasons including flexibility, lower ratios and often being the only option for parents in rural areas. We want to promote them in the sector. I was talking to Dr. Bill Maxwell, who is in the childminding regulatory space in Scotland. We were talking about the experience there. Childminding has been regulated in Scotland for many years. There has recently been an exodus of childminders in Scotland. I asked whether that was linked to the introduction of regulations but was told that it was not and that they had been regulated for a long time. Dr. Maxwell pointed to the fact that, in Scotland, the State has put a lot of money into centre-based childcare but has not been able to put it into childminding. We are doing the same here. We are making centre-based childcare a lot more affordable for parents. The changes we are making here are designed to allow childminders to avail of the NCS as well. It is important that those parents are able to benefit from the affordability measures as well.

There is a great deal of fear out there. The impact of these regulations has been misconstrued and exaggerated in many circumstances. That is why we are engaged in very intensive engagement with Childminding Ireland. I recognise that Childminding Ireland is a great organisation. It does not and cannot speak for every childminder. We are doing our best to engage and provide clear information in the form of clarification where there is misinformation, but we will also be making changes to enable us to maintain the flexibility and maintain the difference between childminding and centre-based childcare and do what I think all Deputies who contributed on Second Stage have agreed to do. Most of the output of that will be seen in the regulations. It will not be seen in this Bill.

Deputy Fitzmaurice raised the specific issue of the number of children a childminder can look after. We discussed that yesterday. We have a little more work to do on it, so I do not have an answer for him. However, I have committed to continuing to engage with him on that point. I hope that has in some way addressed some of the issues he flagged there.

If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will indulge me for a moment more, at the meeting of the Oireachtas joint committee yesterday, I paid tribute the Chairperson, Deputy Funchion. I am delighted to be able to do that now in person and thank her for her work as Cathaoirleach. I said yesterday that her focus has always been on the policy outcomes. She has never let party politics get in the way of delivering good legislative processes and good reports from that committee. It is widely regarded across the committee that her leadership has been extremely fair and open. Some of the pre-legislative scrutiny processes the committee engaged in were challenging. The Deputy did amazing work in facilitating survivors and former residents of mother and baby homes to be able to give their input, especially into the Bill dealing with Tuam. She will be a great loss to this House, but I have no doubt she will continue her co-operation and hard work in the European Parliament and be a great representative for Ireland South.

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