Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The tribunal also seeks to establish whether there have been systemic failures. I know some Deputies say they want to ensure the tribunal is entitled to hear every allegation of abuse. The tribunal is being permitted to hear evidence in respect of complaints of abuse dating back to 1983. In my opinion, though, it is not feasible that we would say to the tribunal that everything - every allegation of complaint since 1983 - should be heard. This would mean that we would, in my opinion, have a tribunal going on for more than a decade. Instead, what we have done in the terms of reference is provide a mechanism whereby the tribunal is permitted to be evidence-led in respect of abuse. This means that the individuals - the women in the Defence Forces who were impacted by what appears to be an inappropriate complaints procedure - will be able to give their evidence in respect of what happened.

I also think we need to be honest with people who seek tribunals of inquiry or other forms of investigation. Sometimes, people come to me as my party's justice spokesperson - I am sure it happens as well with other Members of the House - to tell me they want a tribunal of inquiry or a commission of investigation because they want justice. It is extremely important that we tell the Women of Honour group and the people of Ireland that tribunals of inquiry do not result in justice. They are fact-finding bodies. They are there to investigate something that happened in the past and to produce a report setting out what occurred. Justice is administered in courts when people make civil or criminal complaints. Tribunals of inquiry do not result in justice being administered. At the end of a lengthy process, which may have gone on for many years, people get a report and then ask what the point was and what the report contains and highlight that no one is being held to account as a result of the process. Such a report can lead to lines of investigation, but it is important that people are aware that if they are looking for justice, the mechanism to achieve that is not through a tribunal of inquiry.

It will be noted from the terms of reference that there is a reference to the fact that the tribunal cannot make any findings of fact upon any matters that could be criminal in nature. The reason tribunals of inquiry take so long is if such a tribunal establishes itself and gets into a position where it is potentially going to reach serious findings against individuals, those individuals are going to come into the tribunal and say they wish to be represented as well because their good names are under threat.

They will want legal representation here. As has been indicated, the Women of Honour will be represented but there are other people we have not heard of against whom accusations may be made at this tribunal of inquiry. We cannot tell them they are not entitled to have representation. They will be so entitled. Tribunals of inquiry get into difficulty when they try to hold people to account for criminal behaviour and serious civil behaviour. People may be looking for a report that, at the end of day, will name individuals within the Defence Forces who were involved in forms of abuse but that is not going to happen. That will not be in this final report because, if established in a court, it could be seen as evidence of something being criminal in nature.

Notwithstanding that, we should look at the positives of this. We have been very well served by the Defence Forces in this country. Through the work of the Women of Honour, we have seen that there are areas where standards have not been sufficiently high, where abuse has occurred and where it appears that complaints of abuse were not properly investigated. If it is the case that there was a systemic approach within the Defence Forces not to investigate this issue, to ignore it or to dismiss it because it involved women, it is in the public interest for us all to be aware of that and for it to be reported upon.

I will conclude by stating that if it is the case that individuals think this report and process will result in individuals being held to account for their inappropriate behaviour in the past, I respectfully submit that is not going to happen.

On terms of reference, when we set up a tribunal of inquiry, we lose control over it. We could be here in a couple of years asking where is the report from the tribunal of inquiry set up in 2024. We lose complete control. That is why we try to set concise and precise terms of reference so the tribunal will know what we are asking it to do. The easiest thing for us to do is to give it a blank page but, if that happens, it will never end.

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