John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

A general discussion outside of this House regarding Covid and what went on at that time will range across the spectrum of conspiracy theories, some facts and a listening ear to decide what is best to do to explain to people what happened. During Covid, there were a lot of lockdowns but elderly people in homes felt it more than most and those that died during Covid had to do so without the general support of their families. The issue around Covid, vaccinations and what people thought at the time, plus the deaths, disturbance and trauma caused to families sparked the debate around the number of people dying.

I was a member of the Special Committee on Covid-19 Response. We discussed in detail just how people were to be looked after and our response in real time in terms of the Department, the various front-line staff and so on. It would be worthwhile to look back on that and to have a discussion to learn from just what exactly did happen during Covid. Then we can address the increase in deaths since Covid. Some people consider that there are a lot more deaths now than in comparison to previous years and normal life expectancy. I am beginning to think that the number of deaths is unusual and, therefore, we should examine that and try to understand what is the cause of that. I accept that we have an increased ageing population and that would explain some of the numbers. What shocks me in my own county is the number of young people who are dying, the number of cancer cases being reported and the range of the types of cancer that people are suffering from, in some cases causing death. We should educate ourselves on what is happening and we should try to understand the types of cancer and where they come from.

I have learned also from my own constituency about a case where a factory was blamed for the high death rate, for example, in Castlecomer, north Kilkenny. It involved a farmer, Dan Brennan. We had a debate on the issue at the agriculture committee. He only found out what had happened after the fact. When the factory closed, all of his animals and farming activities improved immediately. It is clear that the adverse effects resulted from the emissions from the factory. He was located across from the chimneys of the factory. Instead of dismissing that as something that was irrelevant or something that did not happen at all, which is often the case when we discuss issues like this because they can be associated with conspiracy theories, when we get into the detail of them, for example, in Dan Brennan's case, we discover that certain things were happening at the time. All of what had shown up in the tests carried out by the then Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on his animals and how the growth of trees was affected stopped some time after the factory was closed. We need to understand what was in the air at that time that caused all of that to happen. Similarly, we need to understand in relation to either vaccines or unusual cancers why all of that is happening.

I read emails that came into my office from one individual who lives in Kilkenny, and I have read reports on the numbers that have died. Because the numbers are so different by comparison to other years, that in itself should set off at least some alarm bells and it should focus the minds of those in authority on why that is happening, setting aside the ageing of our population. If we were to do that, we might dispel some of the extreme explanations that we read about and we could address the reasons it is happening and learn from them.

I would certainly support further investigation into the numbers. I certainly would not support the argument being dismissed on the grounds of it being something that is made up or coming from sharing stories on the Internet or elsewhere. There is a basis here for a discussion, which we are having in this House, and for some action to be taken. As well as that, we have an obligation to allay the fears of those who are very concerned about the number of deaths.

I spoke to my local undertaker in Kilkenny and he too is very surprised by the numbers. Some of the offerings on YouTube tell us what is going on and what users believe is going on. Taking the extreme elements out it, I believe that we should look at it. Any look-back on where all of this is coming from should really take into account what was happening in our nursing homes at that time.

We in this House decided to recognise those that were working on the front line during Covid and afterwards, but it is amazing the number of people who have been excluded from the Covid recognition payment. That should be looked at as well. We should not just say that was for another agency or group to look at. If we are serious about these health-related issues, we owe it to ourselves and the next generation to examine what is being said. We also owe it to those who work on the front line now to understand why they were not paid. They seem to have a legitimate argument. When we put it to Ministers, we are told that it is really not their decision but if we made the decision in this House, which we did, and we have paid out significant money to those that were on the front line and entitled to it, then I believe it is time to look at those who feel they have been left out. In a way, it is the same principle as looking at an argument that looks to be extreme now but on examination it may not be that extreme. Instead of pushing to one side the loud voice on the other side of the argument just because it is connected to something odd that might appear on the Internet, we should actually take on board more in our deliberations as to why the particular argument is being made.

In short, I believe the numbers are unusually high. It is important that the Department of Health, the Government, and any other Department, should examine this to determine why and to learn from what has happened in the past. If we do not do that, we could be just storing up a problem for the future. Any new vaccine that came out very quickly during that time is due to be appraised anyway. It should be looked at because of the fact that the vaccine suddenly came from nowhere. Is it the best? Can we do better? Are the complaints on the issue valid? The number of people who want answers is such that we should facilitate some form of look-back and determine what those answers should be.

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