Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to contribute on this debate. Undoubtedly, there need to be serious sanctions for those who involve children in criminal activity. I have concerns about some aspects of the Bill, which I will highlight shortly.

The estimate that approximately 1,000 children are being exploited in this way cannot be ignored, but it is a complex matter. Where the involvement of children in criminality is concerned, there are wider issues that I wish to address. Investing in families, communities, education and youth work is an essential part of the package, as it pays dividends, particularly where the children in question have been identified as being involved in crime. We do not want to label them, as doing so increases the chances of repeated behaviour, particularly among very young children. Breaking the link between criminal networks requires a different approach. Undoubtedly, this will need considerable investment and patience. Achieving results with such work often requires a long-term view.

The Bills digest has proven helpful. In 2021, the Garda juvenile diversion bureau indicated that the grooming of children by criminals was the primary cause of a 150% increase in drug offences committed by juveniles in Dublin. Approximately 1,000 drug offences were committed by children and adolescents aged between ten and 17 years in 2020 compared with 400 in 2016. Whatever findings the citizens' assembly makes must be considered in terms of how to address this issue.

In 2020, Ms Anne Conroy wrote: "Research has also shown that young people who offend share many features, such as impulsivity, indifferent attitudes to offending, low empathy, peer group enforcement, poor school attendance, mental health issues, poor supervision and minimizing [sic] attitudes by parents." Internationally, the approach referred to as the 8% solution found that 8% of young people arrested over involvement in crime and subsequently sent to court committed more than half of all repeated youth offences, including violent ones. Critically, that 8% can be identified at the time of their first arrest due to factors such as disrupted families, school failure, substance abuse and network gang involvement. If we intervene early and stop this at the first offence, we have a chance to redirect a child. Appropriate interventions at this stage are critical. This is not to excuse that an offence occurred, but to ensure that how we deal with the first offence is appropriate and to prevent repeat offences.

It is long established that children and adults involved in criminal activity are disproportionately impacted by a range of issues, including poverty, unemployment, poor mental health, educational disadvantage, addiction and inadequate family support, and they often have experience of residential care or homelessness. Child homelessness is at a record level, something we never thought we would see, and will cause problems in future, given the above. According to Barnardos and the Irish Prison Reform Trust in 2010, these issues are, for many, interdependent with or frequently related to their offending, either directly or indirectly.

In the view of a senior youth worker I spoke to, decriminalising children would shift the way young people were treated and we should not view child protection from the point of view of a criminal justice response. This does not mean that those young people are not dangerous in the community or that they should be left off with a hug and the hope for better behaviour. It simply means that we move away from punitive measures when dealing with children and towards protective and preventative measures.

The Youth Justice Strategy 2021-2027 acknowledges the significant disadvantages faced by children involved in the youth justice system. Why are we saying that they have the same level of capacity as adults when we know that they are different cognitively? A different approach would pay dividends in breaking the cycle of crime. Studies by the University of Limerick, which are helpfully discussed in the Bills digest, show the kinds of factor that influence a young person's behaviour, for example, childhood adversities like homelessness, involvement in problematic peer groups and pro-criminal norms held by peers or families. Addressing these issues is complex and will need much more than legislation. According to the Bills digest, it has been noted that simply creating new offences is a low-cost response by states and that legislation alone only gives a political veneer to meaningful action. Aside from legislation, ongoing and targeted investment, particularly in respect of children who are subject to criminal exploitation, will be required.

The Palermo protocol defines an approach that considers this matter from a child trafficking perspective. Europol has done some work on this front. Are we taking a lead from its European Multidisciplinary Platform Against Criminal Threats, EMPACT?

Mr. Eddie D'Arcy, a former CEO of SOLAS who has spent his career supporting some of the most marginalised and potentially dangerous young people, said of the youth justice strategy:

Plans for the [Garda youth diversion programme] to target children under the age of 12 on the basis of their possible future criminal involvement is worrying. We are acutely aware, from both research and practice, that labelling children as "criminal" or "offender" creates additional risk factors for the child and can further drive them into long-term offending behaviour. Any project, regardless of its title, that can be identified by young people and their communities as being designed for "offenders" is not an appropriate form of prevention.

The inclusion of any initiative designed to support children as young as eight with specific needs in a Justice-led strategy is concerning. There are more appropriately placed social and educational services that could offer meaningful supports to these children and their families, including after school projects.

How we respond to children involved in crime is important.

The lack of intervention is a concern. I pulled out an article that Mr. John Mooney wrote in The Sunday Times a few years ago. The then Acting Garda Commissioner, Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin, ordered an internal investigation after it was discovered that, between 2010 and 2017, the Garda had failed to pursue hundreds of young offenders who had committed serious crimes.

These were children who were not deemed suitable to enter into the youth diversion programme, a scheme that was set up to keep young people out of the criminal justice system. The investigation found that officers failed to take any meaningful action in a quarter of all those cases. I hope that has been resolved since. The fact that those crimes were misrecorded or there was no sanction failed the offender, just as much as it failed society. We are not talking about not doing anything, but we are talking about appropriate interventions, and turning a blind eye is not one of those.

Our current youth diversion programme is aimed at children involved in criminal or antisocial behaviour. It is aimed at children aged between 12 and 18, but often as young as ten, as per the Children Act 2001, but it existed prior to that in a more informal way. As the Minister of State indicated, it is not suitable for all situations. It depends on the nature of the offence, the attitude of the offender, and a number of other factors.

I share the concerns of another youth worker that the definitions of "adult" and "child" included in the Bill are too linear and might produce an unintended consequence. The implementation of the Bill as it stands would penalise peer-friend groups for the same activity in a different way due to the date of their birth. For example, if person A, who is aged 18 and 30 or 40 days and person B is aged 17 and 200 days, are convicted of criminal activity, will person A also be charged with directing person B without knowingly doing so?

What might be considered as an alternative would be the three-year rule. This Bill could include a provision whereby a three-year rule is allowed. Accordingly, person B would only be convicted of directing a child or young person to engage in a criminal activity if they are a minimum of three years older than person A. The Victorian model is 21 and obviously we have set it at 18, but there is a very thin line in terms of age. We often see 17-, 18- and 19-year-olds all being part of the same group, and it is important that we consider that. It may be possible to include a provision where the intent to groom or knowingly direct a child or young person to engage in criminal activity is another alternative. An alternative definition of youth is provided by the United Nations. For statistical purposes, it defines "youth" as those persons between the ages of 15 and 24, without prejudice to other definitions by member states. Twenty four years may well be too old, but I am just saying that there is an issue that needs to be looked at.

I want to refer to something else because it struck me as being relevant to the Bill. The new three-part RTÉ series, "Gaelic in the Joy" is really interesting. If anything, it reinforces some of the issues identified in the University of Limerick studies, which are included in the Bill digest. The ex-Dublin player, Philly McMahon, and comedian, Rory O'Connor, put the prisoners through a three-month educational and sporting programme with a view to teaching them essential life skills such as leadership, teamwork and co-operation, self-belief and the value of hard work. It is obviously done through the prism of playing a number of football matches. The last of the series is on tonight. It is really interesting to see the change in people over time and the way they have addressed some of those issues, in terms of it not being just about technical skills but a whole lot of other things. The match against the prison officers is on tonight's programme. After watching two of the programmes, I am left with the feeling that if the efforts and energies were put into some of the people that are featured in this programme, albeit that they have done serious things, as they would not be in prison if they did not, one could ask if they would have ended up in prison.

I want to quote from the former governor of Mountjoy, John Lonergan, who was on a podcast with the Dublin City Library and Archive project. When asked what was the biggest single factor in prison, right across the entire prison population, he said it was low self-esteem and very little confidence. He went on to talk about the importance of human connections, community and family. I remember a survey that was done in Mountjoy a good number of years ago and he spoke about it. He was asked if there were factors that he noticed in the survey. One of the points he raised is that the majority of prisoners were not involved in group activities as youngsters, including sports. That is a differentiator that is worth paying attention to. When we look at the economic evidence from the approaches that depend on the relationship between young people and professionals such as youth workers, it provides some indication of the potential gains suggesting that for every euro that is invested in mentoring, there is a return of €4.35. The National Youth Council of Ireland has continuously called for an increase in the budget provision for youth services in Ireland. If we consider the need of children and young people in communities, funding these services is a no-brainer when it comes to early intervention opportunities and accessibility.

The points that have been made on DEIS schools are very important, but sometimes we also need interventions outside of the school environment. The youth work service is a very obvious one, and social work and other services also require investment. There is no doubt there are people who are a risk to society. I am not saying that everything can be resolved through early intervention, but there is no doubt that it would show results if it was properly targeted. I compliment RTÉ on the programme I mentioned. It is exactly the kind of public service output that is helpful. People will watch it who might not normally watch a documentary.

I will make one final point about restorative justice. Arguably, it is something that is underutilised, and should be further embedded in our approach to engaging with children and young people involved in criminal activity. I would like to see that happen. I know this legislation is on a narrower point, but I ask the Minister of State to consider some of the points in particular. I refer to the very linear approach to the age and the kind of consequences that we might see, in addition to the use of restorative justice. There are other issues that we need to consider. The Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use could end up being a very important initiative if we take on board some of the things that might be difficult and unpopular for us to take on board. They may well take the money out of the system and then children may not be dragged into something that they should not be dragged into, so we are achieving it in a different way.

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