James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Durkan. Our other constituency colleague, Deputy Cronin, is also in the Chamber and I expect is about to speak. We have already heard from Deputy Berry so County Kildare is well represented in this debate, as it should be, as the home of the Defence Forces in many ways.

I commend the Tánaiste on his work to date on leading this conversation. It is a conversation and not a foregone conclusion on any side of the House, certainly not to my mind. We need to review our defence and security policies. The establishment of this commission on the future of our international policy and obligations is well-timed, makes perfect sense, and is a good way to do it. We have an obligation to change as the world changes. As I said, that outcome or destination is not preordained but we have an obligation to consider and constantly review where we stand on different issues. We have an obligation to our citizens who we represent in this State, and to the international community, to challenge and critically assess where we are, with shifting sands around the world.

Deputy Bruton referenced - he stole my lines a little - Francis Fukuyama and the end of history, and where we expected to be perhaps 20 or 25 years ago, when we thought a unipolar rules-based world order was emerging with liberal democracy as its key tenet. That appeared to be a sort of utopian outcome, for some schools of political thought anyway, but it was short-lived, as we saw with the Balkans following the demise of the Soviet Union and the conflicts that emerged around the world in other ways. That utopia did not last, which puts the pressure back on us to reconsider and defend our model of governance and democracy. Democracy itself is under threat around the world. According to the Democracy Index, the number of countries running parliamentary liberal democracies as their primary mode of government is in decline and has actually slipped back in the past decade, as opposed to where it was at one stage. Any idea that the liberal order or democracy has succeeded is incorrect. They are actually under threat. That is even before we come to the conventional trench warfare being waged on the Continent, which is something none of us expected to see. That compounds matters further.

The historical position deserves some consideration. It is often said during these debates, and seems to have become some sort of truism or sacred cow, that our founding fathers would never have contemplated a yielding from neutrality. I do not accept that as historically or factually true. I accept that any good leader evolves as circumstances evolve. If we look back to Seán Lemass, he said when we entered the European Union that he considered some form of defence pact would inevitably emerge as a natural successor to the EU. He seemed to be at peace with that. I will look back a little further, to Wolfe Tone, who is often mentioned in these debates, and who I commemorate every year in Sallins, County Kildare, as I am sure many in this House do. Wolfe Tone welcomed and embraced the French fleet when General Humbert landed at Killala in the middle of 1798. He worked with "gallant allies abroad", as the 1916 Proclamation states. We have always worked with others, identified common-minded groupings or nations abroad, and collaborated and worked with those towards our independence movement and assisting other states. The idea that we have always stood alone at the edge of Europe, unhindered, unaided and not aiding others, is not the position. We have always embraced the support of others and, indeed, supported others when it was needed.

There was a moment in time, as referenced by Deputy Durkan, perhaps coming towards World War Two, when we were still in our early nation stage emerging from independence and still finding our feet. The reign of Queen Victoria was coming to an end when we got our independence and there was a fear we would be dragged into British imperial wars, in which we rightly wanted to play no part. We would have been very much on the back foot in those wars, perhaps as cannon fodder for an imperial army. We did not want that and, very sensibly, did not do it, but that is a different position from where we are now. We now stand as a sovereign state and an independent member of the European Union. We are unlike our neighbours in Britain at this stage, and have surpassed them in many ways, but that is another day's work. We stand with allies in Europe and elsewhere in defence of common goals and values.

The consultation is very broad and deep. It covers myriad areas, including everything from hybrid warfare to subsea cables, cyberattacks, conventional warfare, which is in there as well, radar, and system scanning. It is important we consider where we stand in every sense. We are a small island nation on the edge of Europe but we are strategically important. We are the interface for data, cyber, submarine cables and telecoms from Europe to North America. I yield to my colleague, Deputy Ó Cuív, on many things because he is a very knowledgeable and wise man, but I take issue with his remark on the subsea cable. There is a spaghetti junction just off the south-west coast of Ireland where many of those cables converge and are carried across under the sea as part of a larger super-cable, as it were. It is certainly easier to mine, track, detect and intercept cables closer to shore than it is once they go into a common duct to go across the ocean. There may be technical points, but if an entity wanted to intercept those cables, it would do so closer to shore rather than offshore. We have seen activity, including Russian ships among others, circling those cables continuously, which is not a new phenomenon that occurred this year and last year. Three years ago, Russian aircraft circled those cables. It is a common feature. Whether the ultimate goal is to spook us, track us, intercept us or all of the above, it is happening repeatedly.

All this is even before we get into the issue of disinformation and cyber campaigns. Some 40% of the EU's data are housed in Ireland. Many multinationals operate their European, Middle East and African bases out of Ireland. It is part of our economic offering, part of the employment granted to so many of our citizens, part of our economic success, and part of the reason we have €64 billion in the surplus account for next year to fund and manage our citizens and State.

It is an economic asset. Our sovereignty depends on us defending it, at the very least. This is not a closed conversation but an open one. I have set out some of my views and I look forward to hearing the views of others.

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