Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour) | Oireachtas source

This amendment, which was tabled by Deputy Paul Murphy, goes to crux to people's comfort or otherwise with the Bill. The demonstration test is something I have discussed with academics, including Jennifer Schweppe and others. I have spoken to Seamus Taylor, who effectively wrote the book on hate crime. He says that, in his experience, it is essential to the effectiveness of the Bill. It is true that it is only England, Wales and Northern Ireland that have this demonstrate in their legislation. It is an outlier, but they have been commended by the UN, the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, for their laws, policies and practices.

What we do not want is somebody who is in an altercation and says something stupid then labelled a hate criminal. In certain circumstances, what can happen to a young person is that they double down on that. They will say, "I have just been labelled as somebody who has just committed a hate crime". They can be influenced by people in that sphere who will turn them into a victim. That will then be a fork in the road of their lives.

We are conflicted as legislators. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan made a valid point, which the Minister of State might reflect on the Seanad debate. It is a difficult issue for the Government to try to do what is best. However, we do not want legislation that ends up criminalising the wrong people. There is a whole world of a difference between somebody who is motivated to attack somebody based on their ethnicity or other characteristics versus somebody who gets involved in an altercation and who then uses that person's ethnicity or characteristics as a slur as a result of that altercation. If we equate those two instances, I think we will be doing a disservice to the person in the second case. We will then possibly have lost that person forever. That happens far too often when you criminalise somebody. In a certain circumstance, they could be gone.

However, in the UK there is effective hate crime legislation and the demonstration test was key to that. It is not an easy issue. Certainly, I am minded to support what Deputy Jim O'Callaghan said in relation to the Minister of State's further investigation into this matter.

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