Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Tá áthas orm gur roghnaíodh an Bille seo le plé agus tá súil agam go nglacfar inniu leis ar an Dara Céim. Bille cuimsitheach atá ann agus tá tairbhe mhór ag baint leis. Bunaíodh an chéad bhanc in Éirinn in 1782 agus ó shin tá daoine ag cur rudaí luachmhara i dtaiscí i mbainc. Tá chuid mhaith taiscí nó boscaí, deirtear liom, ag dul i bhfad siar nach bhfuil a fhios ag éinne cé leo iad. Is iarracht é seo le tabhairt faoi a fháil amach cé leis na boscaí, nó murar l'éinne iad, breathnú cad atá iontu agus iad a choinneáil ar mhaithe leis an Stát.

Céard iad na céimeanna atá sa bpróiseas? An chéad chéim ná clár do na boscaí a réiteach. An dara céim ná na boscaí a cheangail, chomh fada agus is féidir, le daoine gur leo iad. Murar féidir é sin a dhéanamh, cuirfear fógra poiblí amach agus beidh sé sin ar fáil go ceann sé mhí ar lorg úinéirí. Sa gcás gur dteipeann air sin uilig, ansin osclófar na boscaí, féachfar céard atá iontu, cuirfear Ard-Mhúsaem na hÉireann ar an eolas agus déanfaidh seisean cinneadh céard is ceart a dhéanamh leis na taiscí. Déanfaidh sé cinneadh an ceart iad a choinneáil nó gan iad a choinneáil agus más ceart iad a choinneáil don Stát déanfaidh sé cinneadh cén áit ar cheart iad a choinneáil. B'fhéidir go coinneofar iad i nDánlann Náisiúnta na hÉireann, in Ard-Mhúsaem na hÉireann, i Leabharlann Náisiúnta na hÉireann nó in aon áit eile.

Rud amháin go gcaithimid béim a chur air ná gurb é an socrú atá ann ná go n-osclófar na boscaí is sine i dtosach. Céard é "is sine"? Ciallaíonn "is sine" an bosca is faide siar ná fosclaíodh. Má bhí bosca ann agus é á oscailt de réir a chéile agus á dhúnadh agus tuilleadh rudaí gur cuireadh ann, gan bhaint as sin. Is é an dáta deiridh gur fosclaíodh é an dáta a chomhaireann. Tá soláthar sa mBille nach n-osclófar aon bhosca riamh nach bhfuil dúnta le níos lú ná 80 bliain.

Tá mé ag tnúth leis an díospóireacht inniu agus go dtiocfar céim eile leis an bpróiseas atá ar bun le cúig bliana cheana féin.

I am delighted this Bill has been selected for Second Stage debate tonight and I hope that it will be passed on Second Stage and proceed to Committee Stage. It is a comprehensive Bill with six parts and 30 sections and has been five years in gestation.

I thank my colleagues on the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands for their interest in this Bill and for their support in the work I was doing. I particularly thank the staff in the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers, Ms Niamh McKenna and Mr. Owen Garvey, for all the detailed work they have done in looking at the legislation that exists already and in assisting in drafting this Bill. That said, I take full responsibility for any errors or omissions. I also thank the person, who does not wish to be named, who suggested to me first that this Bill be developed.

It is worthwhile looking exactly at how long the banks, and boxes going into them, have existed. The first bank, the Bank of Ireland, was established by Act of Parliament in 1782. AIB, in its original form, dates back to the founding of the Provincial Bank in 1825. I understand that both have had safekeeping facilities for their clients from the outset and today both institutions and other banks retain all the property that has been abandoned over the years.

It is important to stress repeatedly the property is not the banks' property. They are only safekeepers of the property. The property rightfully belongs to the people who put it there. Obviously, there is nobody alive now who put it there in 1784.

The vast majority of this property was deposited in a sealed state. In other words, people came in with trunks, envelopes, chests, safes and every kind of thing. Some people have a vision of neat rows of boxes with keys in them but in many cases, they brought in, as I said, a sealed receptacle that these deposits are in and, as a result, the contents are unknown.

I understand that for a variety of reasons over the years some boxes had to be opened and that a sample of the items that were found were cash, weapons and other war memorabilia, antiques, paintings, jewellery, title deeds, wills and other papers.

I even heard it suggested that there could be €1 billion worth in the boxes, but this is not about money. This is about artefacts. This is about history. This is about items being made available. That is what we are talking about. It is not so much the monetary value but it has been suggested to me that the monetary value alone would be quite significant.

We have to be very careful - this is what the Bill is about - about how we would do this. The first step is to create a register of property deposits in banks. The second step is to identify the safekeeping of property deposits where the records are sufficient to identify a living or beneficial owner, in other words, the inheritor, starting with the oldest deposits first, and obviously you would expect they would be the hardest ones to link with a present-living person. Failing that, we would have to advertise with the information available. That information is comprehensive. Effectively, it is everything the banks know. In that way, it is possible to see if an owner comes forward.

In the event of no owner coming forward, the boxes are opened to see what is inside. The director of the National Museum will then examine any unclaimed property and he or she can designate somebody on his or her behalf and decide whether it should be retained by it or by certain other bodies, for example, the National Gallery or the National Library, and put it on display. In the event of something going on display and somebody finding out it was theirs, they could claim it back.

The Bill also provides for the transfer of unclaimed funds to the Dormant Accounts Fund. All safe deposits will be recorded in chronological order from the beginning of the banks in the 18th century and no safe deposit held by a bank for less than 80 years will be opened.

When you put a number in a Bill, you have to have justification and a rationale. At the same time, it is always slightly arbitrary. Eighty years was decided to be appropriate as few people under 20 years of age lodge safe deposit boxes in banks and, therefore, if 80 years is your cut-off point and you add 20 years to that, the minimum age people would be before they would open them would be at a minimum over 100 years of age.

The Bill is broken into six parts. Part 1, preliminary and general, includes the purpose of the Bill, the Short Title, interpretation section, expenses and regulations and offences under the Bill. Part 2 provides for the registration, notification and examination of historical property deposits.

This Part imposes certain obligations on institutions with regard to the registration of information relating to deposited property, the identification and notification of depositors of unclaimed property, and the examination of unclaimed property.

Part 3 provides for retention by the State of unclaimed property. This Part provides for the notification of the director of the National Museum that unclaimed property is held by an institution, for the examination of unclaimed property by the director, and for the retention by the State of certain items of property that are of historical, archaeological or artistic importance. This Part also provides for claims for return of property that is retained by the State. In certain circumstances, it also allows for the acquisition by the State of certain property in respect of which such a claim for return is made.

Part 4 provides for the notification of other persons for the performance of statutory functions. This would be the various agencies and so on.

Part 5 provides for the disposal of unclaimed property, the transfer of unclaimed moneys to the Dormant Accounts Fund, and claims for the repayment of unclaimed moneys.

Part 6 provides for miscellaneous matters, including compliance with the provisions of the Bill and the powers of the Central Bank for the purposes of supervising compliance with the provisions of the Bill.

The Schedule to the Bill provides for the phased period during which certain historic, unclaimed property must be examined for the purposes of section 9. That is useful. We have put in inner limits and outer limits. One problem we often find is that things run for much longer than we as legislators had intended they would. I will be interested to get feedback from the House. I hope the fact there are very few of us here is a sign that everybody agrees with this and there is no contest or anybody objecting to any aspect of it. I hope this Bill can now go to Committee Stage, where all of the hard work can be examined in detail and where the Minister will be able to go through it line by line.

Tá mé an-bhuíoch don Aire Stáit as ucht teacht anseo. Tá súil agam go mbeidh dea-scéal aige agus go mbeidh sé ag rá nach mbeidh an Rialtas ag cur ina choinne agus go dtiocfaidh sé ar aghaidh go dtí an chéad Chéim eile agus ansin go mbeidh deis againn dianstaidéar a dhéanamh air seo. Tá go leor buntáistí ag baint leis seo, agus tá mé ag ceapadh go bhfuil go leor den phobal ar mhaith leo fáil amach céard atá sna boscaí taisce seo.

I think an awful lot of people would be curious to find out what people were hiding back in 1784, 1785 or even 1800 or 1825. Members might remember that in the year of the millennium, there was a habit of putting a time capsule in the ground, with many things relevant to the year 2000, and saying that in 50 or 100 years, people could dig these up and find out what the time capsules were holding. In my view, these safe deposit boxes are likely to be an absolutely fascinating time capsule into a world we do not inhabit but which was the real world for the people who lived at that time. I recommend this Bill to the House and hope the Minister of State will be equally positive.

See this speech in context