Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Tá sé go maith go bhfuil am agam le labhairt faoin mBille seo. Is Bille mór dlí atá ann. Tá súil agam go ndéanfar athruithe bunaithe ar an méid atá daoine tar éis a rá air agus é ag déanamh a bhealach tríd an Dáil agus tríd an gcoiste. Tá sé ríthábhachtach go bhfuil aon rud a bhaineann leis an nGarda Síochána i gceart, nach ndéanann muid aon bhotúin air agus nach bhfuil muid ag cur ualach iomarcach ar an nGarda Síochána leis. Tá sé tábhachtach gur féidir leis na gardaí agus an pobal na hathruithe móra atá i gceist anseo a thuiscint.

Major changes are afoot in this legislation, most of which have a good basis and some that I am still perplexed by, because if something is not broken, then we do not fix it. There is, though, a crisis of policing in the State. It is not a crisis on the level of that in the health service or housing but we do need more gardaí. We need gardaí with equipment. Only last week or the week before, we were speaking here about the modernisation, in my view, of An Garda Síochána with body cameras. I raised the issue of dash cameras as well. These are minor things, however, compared with other changes that are needed. One of these is the computerisation of the front desks in Garda stations so that when I go in with a passport application form or to sign on as somebody who has been instructed to do so by the courts, the information would be held in a computer and can be accessed quickly. This would ensure we would not again have the chaos we had last year when people were ringing us up and telling us that a garda had certified their passport application but nobody could ring to check. It was a simple thing. The information should be in a central database, but that is not where it is. We know we have the problem of cybercrime, and I will return to this issue, but the chaos last year was a simple thing that should not have happened. It should be the case when somebody fills out a form that the information goes straight into the computer system and that is it done. The garda has ticked the box. I am aware that sometimes members of the force are called out when they are in the middle of doing something, so this is not a criticism of the members of An Garda Síochána in any way, shape or form. I am trying to ensure that the required tools are available.

I refer, for example, to the situation where somebody is being fingerprinted. There may be a logical reason for this process being the way it is, but I refer to the fact that in this day and age we are still using ink, rolling it out, putting somebody's hand on a glass plate and then scanning that information, whereas machines exist that can do this digitally. Equally, we are still behind most other countries in terms of forensic science. In recent years, we have seen this with society in general learning about forensic science. Criminals, in particular, have learned about this and they try everything to avoid getting caught by leaving any material behind when they commit crimes. Many cases rely on forensic science to establish whether somebody is innocent or guilty and if the material found at a crime scene is relevant. There is also a need for this to happen quickly. Far too many cases have been delayed because the forensic scientists have not had the facilities or the staff to carry out the work quickly.

That is part of what we were talking about last week. This week, we are talking in general about a lot of work. I am old enough to remember and to have had my dealings with the Garda Complaints Board way back. This was ridiculous at the time. You just wrote in to that body and it responded with the same letter that had been received the previous time when a member of the Garda had harassed you and it was stated that your complaint was mischievous. It was not mischievous if a Garda said, "Aengus, stop, what is your name?". He already knew your name. That was harassment. You could make a complaint, but you got the same letter back.

That era changed with the advent of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. According to some gardaí, this went too far. With the powers and the extra trust we have put in An Garda Síochána, there is a need to ensure there is accountability. The Garda, though, should also not be burdened with bureaucracy to the extent that the force cannot carry out its functions. Over the years, complaints have been made by members of An Garda Síochána concerning the continuous delays in court. I refer to gardaí having to turn up in court. Moves were made to try to ensure that this process was more streamlined, that gardaí did not have to spend all their days hanging around courts waiting for adjournment after adjournment and that they had only to present at the key moments, whether at the opening of a trial, the initial adjournment, etc. There has been a little bit of progress, but not enough.

We need An Garda Síochána members who are trained. We need them on the streets, or if they are specialist staff, doing the specialist work with which they are tasked.

That brings me to the new era we are in. Part of this debate is about Garda members and the future. There are new tasks which An Garda Síochána has to undertake that would not have been thought of at the time An Garda Síochána was set up as the guardians or keepers of the peace. Cybercrime is one the new areas where gardaí need the time and the skills required to carry out their duties. It is not just fraud. We all know of the level of online abuse online and of people trafficking and of money exchanges, which are all happening online now. This means that many of our gardaí will, over the years, be out of sight from the public because they are stuck trying to track down criminals online.

We need more gardaí on the street. There is a visibility aspect to policing, because it is to keep the peace, and their very presence over the years has been enough for rows not to break out and for people not to get up to devilment, vandalism or to engage in other crime. When the numbers and visibility of An Garda Síochána drop and they are not engaging in the community, one will see the ne’er-do-wells running amok, and believing they can carry out their actions without any consequences.

As we have regrettably seen in my area in recent times, we see elements of society who think they are a law unto themselves and who attack members of An Garda Síochána. Hopefully, the Garda members who were subjected to attack at an incident at a funeral in Ballyfermot recently have fully recovered. Only a number of months ago, two members of An Garda Síochána were in a car and they were rammed. Some elements of society believe they are a law unto themselves.

Without support, the community is afraid because it does not see gardaí day in, day out. The gardaí are then made feel unwelcome because the only people on the streets are those who, on many occasions, are intent on destroying their own communities.

The whole aspect of public safety is key to this but the public has to buy into any changes and understand where those changes are coming from. I was at a policing forum meeting on Tuesday night in the south inner city. It was very informative and many young people engaged with it, which I was quite surprised to see. It is a slightly newer model to the joint policing committees, JPCs, which we have been used to. Rather than just a community and council report being made, there was a greater engagement. Hopefully, that is what we will see going forward, that we see progress and that issues raised at that level are delivered on.

That is one of the problems, in that some speak about old policing while others speak about new policing, which is the cuddly model. The cuddly model is what was always intended, which was to ensure An Garda Síochána members were involved in their communities, that they understood them, that they knew the young fellas and young girls by their first names and that knew all of the area they patrolled.

Sometimes gardaí get used to an area and, suddenly, they are gone and you will not see them again. That whole wealth of experience just disappears. There has to be some way of allowing gardaí gain promotion while remaining in situ. In my area we have seen the best community gardaí being promoted to sergeant and disappearing from the area. They have gone elsewhere because there cannot be too many chiefs in the same station. In my area there are very few chiefs so I would have no problem holding on to a few extra sergeants or whatever. I understand this from the point of view of An Garda Síochána but when that happens, you lose that wealth of information, communications and camaraderie. Even the normal pleasantries of life disappear. You then have a new whole cohort who come in.

Thankfully, in most areas, we are starting to see some of those new gardaí drifting into communities as they come out of Templemore but they are raw recruits and one can see they are learning on the job. There are not enough sergeants to ensure they are learning as much as they can but I wish all of them well. Hopefully, more and more of them will come into the areas where there are major crimes.

Deputy Durkan mentioned drugs. Again, when An Garda Síochána was first set up, there were no drugs and there was no real appreciation of alcohol. There were lads making poteen and there were a few shebeens, which was the most that was going on. There is money involved and we see the wherewithal the drugs gangs now have. We have seen the fatal consequences of that in this city and in my area, in particular. We have seen the links between and the reach of these gangs well beyond our shores. That is another element which also needs to be addressed to ensure An Garda Síochána has all the skills and the links internationally.

We are looking at a number of areas. I am interested in the concept in the Bill, which I believe is Part 7, which deals with the security legislation because we do not have a security service. It is very interesting because An Garda Síochána, or some other genius, has come up with using extra words on some of its logos, which seem to indicate that it is the security service. The Garda Síochána has taken to using the phrase, “Ireland’s National Police and Security Service” as a subtitle to its logo. I do not know if G2 or the National Cyber Security Centre fall into that category as they are also part of our security service because we do not have an individual such service. We are not like the Brits with their empire, where they have MI6 running around the world thinking they are lords and masters and with MI5 providing an internal service. Thankfully, we do not have that because we did not need it but we need some body. Perhaps it will be an independent examiner of security legislation. I am not opposing it but it needs a great deal more clarity before we set up another body, examiner or whatever to ensure it is not doing what it was never intended to do and to ensure there is no security service, per se, in the State. The different organs of the State, however, which have international reach or a job of work to do to protect the State, could work together co-operatively.

Speaking of the independent examiner of security legislation, it was only last year that we passed the Official Languages (Amendment) Act 2021, and in that there is a specific section which states that any new bodies being set up by the State had to be done as Gaeilge. A number of bodies are being set up by this legislation, one of which is the one I have just mentioned. The legislation also refers to a police ombudsman. I remind the Minister of State of the requirement to ensure the title is as Gaeilge. An bord Garda Síochána is the title. That is easy because it is the same title in English or in Irish. The other ones listed need to have Irish language titles. Oifig an ombudsman póilíneachta would be one. Fear an phobail, believe it or not, was the original name when Michael Mills was the first Ombudsman. He was asked what the translation for the word "Ombudsman" was and he replied that is was fear an phobail, which means the man of the people. Póilíneacht is drifting into parlance also and I do not know if that is done purposely or not.

When An Garda Síochána was set up, it was not just supposed to be a police force; it was always supposed to be working with the community. If we start drifting into using policing continually, police authorities and what not, we need to be careful that it is not undermining the original ethos and function intended for An Garda Síochána.

There is criticism from the Garda Commissioner and others about oversight and accountability, and that these should not become unbearable or obstruct the force's ability to carry out its functions. We need to ensure that An Garda Síochána is specifically accountable in order that history does not repeat itself in the context of people in An Garda Síochána getting away with every type of skulduggery. In most cases they have been brought to book, usually only after a furore.

The idea of oversight in the context of this Bill and other legislation is to ensure that accountability is automatic or part of the culture. People need to understand from day one that there is no way to get away with something. We do not want to end up with a situation similar to what happened with the heavy gang, the members of which battered suspects and locked them up willy-nilly, with the State and the courts supporting their actions for many years. There were quite a number of those incidents. Hopefully, that is all in the past. The key is that we are trying to build for the future, but we need to put guidelines and strictures in place in order to ensure that what I am referring to does not happen again.

Every member of An Garda Síochána needs to be compliant. Being compliant needs to become second nature to them from day one. That needs to be part of the job just as much as it is part of the job of gardaí nowadays to be part of the community apparatus, whether it is the JPCs, safety forums, regeneration boards, drugs task forces or whatever. They need to understand from day one when they join An Garda Síochána that there are different duties and this is what their role will be. There should be no misunderstanding. The same goes for ensuring that they understand that they cannot step over the line because there will be a process to be followed and that process will sometimes upset people who are being investigated. Hopefully, they will be found not guilty of an offence because that means they are doing what it says on the tin.

We all come under more scrutiny nowadays because of the ready availability of cameras, recording devices and whatnot, and also because we can search back over data, cross-reference information, etc. We all need to be careful in our lives that we are not involved in any type of skulduggery. This is as true for members of An Garda Síochána as it is for politicians or anybody else. We have seen the consequences for the people in this House and in An Garda Síochána who have been caught out. The idea behind legislation that brings about accountability is that it will ensure that people will be protected from the actions of those who might want to take a chance but who should not do so.

I hope that some of these issues may be addressed further on Committee Stage. This is a big Bill and it will require a great deal of work.

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