Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

As we know, this legislation is far-reaching and has a lot in it, which we understand and respect. We are supportive, in general, of the direction it is going in. However, we have difficulties with aspects of it. The general issue for many members of An Garda Síochána is the under-resourcing of the force. They feel they do not have the backup or resources they require when attending an incident. That is mainly because of the retention and recruitment crisis, which is the primary problem at the moment and must be at the forefront of our minds when we look at this type of legislation. It is one of the reasons why they tell us there are such difficulties. One of the many reasons is excessive red tape they see coming out all the time. Every time they have to do something or anything happens anywhere, on the street, in a person's house, or wherever, there are reams of paperwork to fill out, which causes huge frustration. They feel they almost have their hands tied behind their backs when they are trying to do their jobs. It is important that An Garda Síochána is held to account and there is accountability when members engaging with the public do so in an aggressive way, which happens occasionally, not regularly. It is important that there is an emphasis on that. I think we all understand that.

I looked at a parliamentary question I asked a few months ago regarding the numbers resigning. In the Dublin metropolitan area, nine gardaí resigned in 2016, while 60 resigned in 2022. One reason for that and one of the primary reasons so many gardaí are leaving the force and we are finding it difficult to recruit people is that, particularly in Dublin but in other cities as well, gardaí cannot afford to live. They cannot afford rent, to buy a house or afford to survive in those circumstances. It is a very poor reflection of where we have gotten ourselves over the past decade. Many saw the profession as solid, dependable, pensionable, there for life and once somebody got in, they were set up. It is no longer seen that way at all. That is one of the issues that needs to be dealt with. Traditionally, many people who joined An Garda Síochána came from families in which their fathers, grandfathers or uncles were gardaí. That is no longer happening. I speak to members of An Garda Síochána who tell me there is no way they would encourage their sons or daughters to join the service. Reflection is required about why that is and why we are in this position.

The issues that continue to cause these problems are mainly around the pressures gardaí feel under. In the past, I often looked at it as similar to our health service. We talk about why we cannot recruit nurses or why so many leave the country because they feel under so much pressure in the environment they work in, for example, when there are only two nurses in a ward when there should be six and they feel they cannot manage and are under pressure. The pressurised and inappropriate work environment they feel they are in is there reason we cannot retain people in our health service. It is becoming a similar situation in the Garda. They feel they have similar pressure.

I spoke to gardaí recently who told me they get a callout out to an incident and they know they need to bring at least five or six people with them because of the type of incident, but there are only two available and only one car. That kind of situation puts them at a huge disadvantage. We need to recognise that. The problems we have with having a police service that works for people is about the numbers within it. Across Europe, I think it is measured per 100,000 population. I think there are approximately 330 police per 100,000 population. In Ireland, there are 270 per 100,000. If we were to meet the European average, we would have to recruit about 5,000 more gardaí. The other services across every other country in Europe have high levels of civilianisation, which is something we also have here, with people who do a lot in the back office. Those other services all have that, but they also have a higher number, so they can be face to face, meet, deal with and provide a service to the public. We need to recognise that is a difficulty. The model that provides that service is not there. The community garda who everyone knows, as Deputy Ó Cathasaigh mentioned, and the time when people knew their local garda is no longer the case for many people. They do not know their local garda and they are not part of the community. That needs to change.

I remember raising this with the Commissioner, who said every garda was a community garda. That is not entirely true because a lot of gardaí are put into specialties. They are in specialist units that do specialist work. We understand that needs to happen but community gardaí engaging with the community, particularly in urban areas and in rural areas, needs to be there to meet members of the public and young people who are vulnerable and will get into difficulties and problems. Part of the service the Garda provides is about protecting our people. It is also about protecting people who can fall foul and go down the wrong route. There is a huge amount of work to be done on that.

The measures in this legislation regarding the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, and the reforms are welcome and are going in the right direction. We are still in the position where there is a perception among the public that we are going to see members of the Garda investigating members of the Garda. We are on a small island and we have a small population. People know each other. Members of the public come to us - not just me but I am sure to every other public representative - telling us they went to GSOC and something was investigated and they discovered that the person who carried out the investigation was in Templemore with the person being investigated. It causes a perception that they are not going to get fair play. That is one thing that needs to be examined. If an ombudsman is to do its job properly, it must be independent and be seen to be independent.

Another issue that has been raised by other speakers is that flexibility may be removed from civilian staff in An Garda Síochána, and that instead of being civil servants they would be public servants. There are issues with this and the unions have raised them. I welcome that the Minister has said he will meet the unions to discuss these issues. This is vital. We have to recognise people's rights, including their employment rights. We will table amendments on all of this. I hope we will be able to support the Bill as it progresses. Effective work must be done to ensure that civilian employees taking up positions get at least the same rights as people who work in other Departments, whether in other sections of the Departments of Justice or Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Finance or wherever else. They need to have equal status and equal opportunity for promotion across the public service. This is something they will need to be able to see.

With regard to the direction the Bill is going in, it is welcome to see reform. Sometimes reforms can be painted in a particular way but they do not provide the end result that we need. This is one of the issues I have with the Bill. Recently we discussed legislation to introduce body cameras. Most other jurisdictions have had them for the past ten years or more. We are slow coming to the mark in using technology adequately and appropriately. I know there are issues with civil liberties in this regard but there are also the civil liberties of the victims of crime. We need to ensure that matters are properly investigated for them and that the employment of every resource can be used to ensure they get a proper service. We have to have the right balance in this respect.

The next point I want to make is on how we can address the issue of so many people feeling they do not get the level of service they require when they call the Garda. Recently I attended a meeting in Navan , County Meath. Quite a number of people in the room had shops and businesses in the town. They spoke about how when incidents happened they rang the Garda station but nobody turned up for an hour or two, yet when somebody went up to the station and knocked on the door there were gardaí in there but they did not come out. That person was told to phone 999 and that there was no point in ringing the Garda station. I was very surprised to hear this. I checked it out with other places and I was told the same thing. I was told not to ring the Garda station but to ring 999. It certainly gives people an impression.

I have great respect for the vast majority of the members of An Garda Síochána who do Trojan work and try to do their best. Certainly an impression is being given that somehow or other lesser crimes, or crimes that are of less urgency, are just left to run. We have a problem. I am not saying we need a zero-tolerance approach as there was in New York but we need to ensure that when people look for a service, it is provided for them. This is a key element that needs to be brought to the issue. For too long too many people have found that when they seek the service it is not there and they are not responded to adequately. There is work to be done on the Bill. I hope the Minister understands and respects this. It will need amending and work to make it something that will provide the proper service that the public deserve.

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