Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I am not in any way. I would say the Minister is just glad I did not ask him the question I always ask him at this point. That is for another day.

We all accept the necessity of the likes of this "bodycam" technology. I think there is general agreement on the necessity of ensuring, as with any solution, that resourcing is available. Part of that is training. Training will need to be updated. We will need to involve the Garda Representative Association, GRA, the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, the Garda Commissioner, the Data Protection Commissioner and all other stakeholders. It would be the first time ever if we were to put a training regime in place that did not need to be put on a feedback loop, checked and fixed. Protection of data is a vital part of this but I agree with what Deputy Jim O’Callaghan said on there being no absolutes or absolute freedoms. This resource needs to be provided to members of the Garda for their protection and it will be useful for witnesses and many others.

We have seen many examples in countries across the European Union, as well as Britain and the US. Mention was made of the brutal beating of Tyre Nichols. A significant amount of what will end up as evidence in court will be from dashcam and "bodycam" technology. That provides an argument for what we are discussing. We could easily make the argument that we should have been in here earlier dealing with this. Deputy Costello is correct that we need to make sure due diligence is done, particularly when we get into ancillary issues relating to this.

A fair argument has been put out there about this being a deterrent in relation to assault and intimidation of members of the Garda. Many of us are aware of examples of this and have seen many cases of gardaí being attacked in the last while. Even anybody who switched on a TV screen recently will be aware. If people saw the pieces I did on "The Guards: Inside the K", they will remember gardaí being intimidated and threatened with sexual assault as they did their work and dealt with issues. Sometimes we need to provide evidence that can be used straight away in court because not everyone will have a film crew chasing them. It shows the madness of the world we are in that the threats were made while this was being filmed.

Any protection that can be given to members of the Garda is a necessity. I said it earlier but in the early stages of witness outcry, such as a garda coming upon a witness to a sexual assault or a serious physical assault, that garda is dealing with evidence that could be provided in court. A witness may have to go through some traumatisation but we may be able to save him or her from part of it. That is vital.

We all know the wider issue in relation to CCTV. We need to facilitate it. We know the issues there have been for councils, members of the Garda and everybody else in relation to the general data protection regulation, GDPR. It can be a deterrent against crime but anyone with a mask and hood can generally get around it. Where these deterrents are usable and make sense, we should use them.

We know the wider issues we have had with resourcing. Everybody has had stories in the recent past about ringing Garda stations and being told there are not sufficient cars available. The issues relating to Garda numbers need to be addressed.

Then, there is that protection for members of the Garda if people make complaints. We all accept the absolute need for the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. We need to see accountability in the Garda. Like many others, however, gardaí have had to deal with spurious GSOC complaints. This can provide some level of protection in that regard.

I recall dealing with the former chief superintendent for County Louth, Mr. Christy Mangan. He spoke about two young female gardaí basically being wigged, for want of a better term, when dealing with somebody with huge mental health issues who was going through some form of breakdown. They contained and controlled the scenario but the only thing they were dealing with was people putting phones in the air and all the rest of it. As we are already in a surveillance society, we have to ensure that we can give that bit of added protection to Garda members. We would like to see better manners and less of the madness with regard to people taking photographs and videos and putting content online that it is absolutely sickening. We have all seen that, particularly in the last while.

Deputy Costello spoke about judicial capacity and that is something at which we need to look. I spoke to a garda recently about the recent attacks that have happened to gardaí and their property. It was from a point of view of not being particularly happy with the outcome. We know there is separation with regard to the actions of the Judiciary. However, it fed into that idea that sometimes, Garda members feel like we do not necessarily have their backs at this point. That needs to be dealt with. That is with regard to resourcing but also the wider issue that cases take far too long to get through the courts. In certain specific instances, what we need and want to see are obviously those early interventions.

Initiatives such as the Greentown project and anything else that can be done from a diversionary point of view, and even earlier interventions at a community and family level, can help those people who maybe have a greater likelihood of falling into criminality, which, unfortunately for them, is sometimes a bit more pervasive than we would like within the wider community. There are definite pieces of work we must do in that regard.

We have to deal with very dangerous criminals at this point in time. We probably are all sick of talking about organised crime and drug criminality over the years and dealing with drug debt intimidation at a significant level. We hope the citizens' assembly can look at something that is far more progressive. We will look at best practice across the world. However, we will still need to resource the Garda from a point of view of dealing with dangerous criminals who are impacting severely on our communities.

As regards looking at facial recognition and all the rest, we have to do a specific piece of work regarding due diligence. There have been issues around artificial intelligence, AI, in that not enough work has been done on particular data sets for which the algorithms have been lacking. Technology always improves but there is a wider issue. We need to ensure that we have all the necessary protections put in place.

This is a decent first step. We need to make sure we are covering all our bases and that if we are providing this sort of technology for the Garda, we provide the training and resourcing. However, we will have a wider issue regarding giving the support to the Garda it requires. We have wider issues in respect of dealing with the huge issues around crime. I am talking specifically about organised crime and drug-related crime, which are having such an impact. It is all-pervasive throughout every community across the board. We know that people in working-class areas are at times dealing with these gangs on a day-to-day basis, however, and we really have not given them the support and protections that are required.

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