Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity) | Oireachtas source

I have one or two specific questions regarding the Bill. In early 2020, babies' organs stored at CUMH were sent to Denmark for incineration.

This was done without any consultation whatsoever with parents of those babies. The truth came out in the wash, not from above so to speak, but through various pressures from below. This was a real scandal. It was highlighted in an "RTÉ Investigates" documentary and a review was put in place on foot of that programme. The parents were forced to wait and wait again, for two and a half years, for the report of that review to be published. In the end, it did include an apology but no apology can ever make good the wrong that was done to those parents.

In fairness to them, all through the tragedy and the terrible experiences that they went through, they advanced a clear demand. Their demand was that legislation should be put in place to ensure that this would never and could never happen again, that no other parents would be forced to go through the ordeal they had been forced to go through. It seems to me that the legislation does include an important provision on this issue. The relevant section is in Part 1 of the Bill, at section 8(6) which reads as follows:

A person who is in lawful possession of an anatomical specimen under Part 5 or organs or tissues of a deceased person shall be responsible for the disposal or return of the anatomical specimen, or organs or tissues or their return to the designated family member, subject to the wishes of the designated family member.

That seems to point towards an important change and the campaigning work of the parents would seem to have borne fruit in that section. However, before saying clearly that this is a victory - if one can talk about a victory after what happened to those parents - for the campaigning work that the parents have done, I want to hear confirmation from the Minister. I will not be here for all of the debate but I will be reading the transcript very carefully later. I want the Minister to confirm that section 8(6) in Part 1, that I have just read into the record of the House, means that what happened at Cork University Hospital, CUH, and the ordeal that those parents went through, cannot in law happen again. I would like the Minister to confirm that clearly in his reply. I would also like him to indicate whether that section of the legislation means that if what happened at CUH was to happen after this legislation is passed, it would not just be a breach of guidelines but a breach of the law and that criminal consequences would flow from that. Alternatively, is that something that is not quite clear from the legislation and which needs to be clarified by way of regulations? I would like the Minister to state the position in relation to that.

I note that the Bill provides for the Minister to make regulations on certain matters and this can involve consultation with medical practitioners, parents and others around the detail of how the new legislation will be implemented. This is a provision that needs to be looked at very closely. I understand and appreciate that this Bill deals with issues far broader than the issues to which I refer arising from events at CUH and while I am focusing on the question of the disposal of organs here, in all aspects of this Bill parents are a key part of that consultation process.

The Madden report proposed legislative change in relation to coroner's post mortems but the key proposals from Madden are not to be included in this legislation. It would be better if the legislation had addressed that but I presume that the Minister is going to address those issues and the report's recommendations through other legislation. I ask him to confirm that is the case because the proposals in the Madden report are important.

I concur with the points raised by Deputy Gould about the way parents have been treated since the publication of that report. There is a need for face-to-face meetings and follow-up, as has been mentioned. I sincerely hope that the campaign those parents have waged to ensure that it is enshrined in law that what they went through can never happen again has been successful. That seems to be the case according to my reading of the legislation but I want the Minister to say, loud and clear on the floor of the Dáil, that this provides a legal framework to ensure that this can never happen again and that no other set of parents can be put through a similar ordeal. I also ask the Minister to clarify whether we are talking about a criminal offence if such an event were to be repeated or whether that is something he will deal with by way of regulation.

See this speech in context