Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

Although I believe it would be an excellent end to any evening to have me speak for 20 minutes, I will not subject anyone to that.

We have had a considerable amount of conversation on this Bill. We all realise the issues we have in society with regard to hate. I, like many of my Sinn Féin colleagues, welcome this legislation in principle but there are question marks over it. Many Deputies raised the issue of speed and haste. We need to make sure we carry out the due diligence that is necessary. We have here the idea that an incitement to hatred offence and aggravated versions of existing offences with hatred as a motivating factor can be a hate crime. I cannot see anyone having a great difficulty with the denial of genocide being a crime.

Having a single statute dealing with hate crime is a good idea, commendable and necessary. We all probably wanted to be at this point earlier. Questions have been asked about having some clarity on the definition of "hatred". I accept there will be a huge amount of scrutiny of this legislation. It is vital we do not get caught up in not having the necessary clarity.

We all accept there are huge issues with regard to race, gender or particular views people have. We know there has been a huge amount of oppression in society. Many speakers spoke about an element of hate speech, including online, that some people in this Chamber have had to deal with. A considerable number of female Members have sometimes had to deal with far worse than their male counterparts have. None of that is defensible and all of it must be dealt with. It must be called out where necessary and we need to make sure we have the legislation to deal with it.

Like others, I believe that, where necessary, we should also have education. We should be able to use restorative practice if we are dealing with scenarios where we can dissipate a problem. All of us inside and outside this House must be far more careful about what we say. That is not to take away from the point of view that people will make mistakes and be stupid at times, whether they are young or old. We have all had our moments. At times, however, people and groups can also be hateful and utterly determined in what they are doing. We need to be able to deal with that.

We talk about issues of prejudice and deal with people who are suffering oppression, whether that is on the basis of colour, gender, creed or whatever. We know this can be fed by some of the inequalities that exist in society. Those are what we need to tackle. We have had an explosion in the far right across Europe. People like Ms Marine Le Pen and others have been able to latch on to this. Some of that has been a failure to deal with some of the people on the periphery who feel they do not have power or that nobody is looking after their interests. That is not, for want of a better term, to liberate them from going down wrong roads politically and all the rest of it. As a protection of democracy and good values across the board, however, we need to ensure we deal with the issues, whether it is housing, poverty or the drugs that are rife, particularly in working-class communities. We must look at all these particular issues.

I will reiterate what many have said today. This is a very different world and it is also a very different Ireland from the one in which I grew up, where everybody had the same type of second name and looked the same. "If I can see it, I can be it" is a famous line, which I have probably misquoted. We need to ensure we do that piece in society. We must make sure all those who are part of our society now can see themselves, whether it is in the media, in this Chamber or across all those places that seem to matter in society. We need to make sure all the agencies and elements of society represent the society that is out there. It is a very different society and we have difficulties but in many ways, it is much richer. We need to ensure we put protections in place and we must do as best we can in this legislation. There are, however, much wider issues that need to be dealt with.

There has been considerable commentary about the online world. In fairness, there has been a considerable amount of legislation at European level and also domestically to try to deal with some of these issues. I am thinking of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill and the Digital Services Act. That is the idea. When we are talking about particular tech companies this week, obviously a large number of people have got bad news about their employment. There has been some disgraceful undermining of workers' rights by particular firms. That will have to be called out and dealt with at domestic, European and possibly even a wider level. We know there are people who have been able to use online platforms. We know there have been groupings, loosely. There have been state and non-state actors who have been able to weaponise messages of hate. We really need to make sure that we put those pieces of legislation in place so that we can deal with Twitter, Facebook and everyone else as publishers. Beyond that, we must also be able to make sure that algorithms are not in operation, as we know they are, that can actually allow for the selling of hate. We need to ensure this is dealt with from technical and legislative points of view. I get that it is difficult. We have a changing world not only in demographics and how wider society is but also from a technical point of view. It is very difficult to ensure that legislation catches up but we have to do it.

In respect of the issue of dealing with cyber crime and all that, within this State and on a wider basis we also have to deal with the idea of directed spyware. People may have heard of Pegasus and Predator. Predator is produced by a firm that has a connection to Ireland. It is something that we need to look at. What we are talking about in respect of Predator is not malware or spyware as we understand it in the sense of literally trying to just hit any machine, device or phone that will work. Generally the people who purchase these are what I will call states that would not have a particular interest in human rights but would have a particular interest in ensuring that they can maintain control of their populace and whoever else. It would be about targeting what they would term high-value targets, be they politicians, journalists or whoever else. I think that is a question that the Minister and others within the Government need to look at. I am talking particularly about Predator and the companies situated in Ireland that are associated with it. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

To get back to the legislation, we need to make sure we do due diligence. I would like to think there would be a considerable amount of interaction with Opposition Deputies with the aim of getting as much of this right as possible before it ends up in the courts for the wrong reasons. We must ensure that we are providing another weapon for dealing with that element of hate that is out there. Obviously we are talking about a wide spectrum. At some points we can be talking about hateful language that can be incredibly hurtful to those who receive it, but beyond that we can be talking about absolutely organised acts of hatred and violence that can have a really brutal impact on people's lives. We need to make sure we do this properly.

See this speech in context