Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and I will certainly take a look at the motion and respond to it. It is not entirely accurate to describe people as having been outsourced. That does a disservice to them and even the bodies for which they work. It has always been the case in this State and almost every other democratic state that some services are provided directly by the State and others by voluntary bodies, charities and not-for-profit bodies, many of which predate the existence of the State, and private companies under contract. To try to do everything through the State sector would not work and to try to do everything through the private sector would not work. Excluding voluntary bodies or charities or trying to nationalise them would not work either. It makes sense to provide services in different ways using the public, private and not-for-profit sectors. That is how you get the most capacity and how you get the most done.

As the Deputy will be aware, section 39 organisations often provide a lot of services on behalf of the State. They range from very small organisations to some very big hospitals and disability service providers. They are usually funded through a service-level agreement between the Government and the bodies, essentially through a block grant in return for particular services. The employees are not Government employees and we cannot determine exactly how the block grant is allocated by those providers. However, there will be significant increases in the block grants paid to section 39 organisations next year as a result of the budget. Indeed, there is €100 million in the budget in additional funding this year alone. We anticipate that the increase in the grant provided to those providers should be adequate to cover the cost of the public service pay agreement. This is only fair because it is not just the NHS or other foreign services that are trying to recruit staff from these bodies. The HSE is trying to do it as well and the HSE taking staff from voluntary bodies in that way is not fair. It is important that the block grant increase is adequate to cover the public sector pay increases so they can be applied to the staff in those bodies but we cannot determine that this is done because these are independent entities that control their own affairs and budgets.

One area where we are working very hard and to which the Taoiseach and I are very committed is moving the section 39 hospices into the section 38 category. This could be a precedent for others to follow. It does not always make sense but sometimes it does. These hospices that are voluntary bodies would prefer to be in the section 38 category and I strongly support that because there has been an unfairness and disparity in the way they are funded and the way the staff are treated because of that. We have been working on that and are keen to get it done soon.

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