Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Deputy Durkan was the first to raise this matter. It was interesting that after the immoral invasion of Ukraine by Russia, which was an unprovoked and savage attack on the people of Ukraine with missiles hitting civilian targets and killing innocent people, including children, Finland and Sweden, which had a different position prior to this war, decided to join NATO. It was their decision. They are closer to Russia than we are and felt vulnerable. Around that time, I visited Finland. I had my visit organised before their decision. Both the Prime Minister and the President of Finland were in a position to articulate to me the entire sea change that this invasion caused, in terms of the national psyche of Finland in the first instance. They said that everything they were told as children in terms of fearing a potential invasion of Russia had transpired in terms of the invasion of Ukraine, so much so that public opinion had changed dramatically in favour of joining the military alliance that is NATO. The same happened in Sweden. That is the impact so far in terms of how those countries feel threatened and vulnerable.

The same applies, by the way, to the European Continent in terms of what could happen in the future and the degree to which the EU on its own, or at least certain countries within the EU, would be in a position to repel significantly attacks of this kind. Hence, the countries on the east see this as an existential threat because of their history. Countries like Estonia are clear that this is existential to them. When I speak to the Prime Minister of Estonia, she points out that the only time of freedom her parents got was that time between the First World War and the Second World War. She speaks about Stalin, who was brutal in terms of what he did to Estonia, Poland and other countries, and Hitler. These people's life experiences are far different from ours. Sometimes we should be less arrogant in the House in proclaiming what they should and should not do. If we had lived through what their parents and grandparents lived through, we would have a different perspective in terms of the potential of Russia to violate their territorial integrity and their nationhood, as has happened in Ukraine. I hope I have answered Deputy Durkan's questions in that respect.

I agree with Deputy Haughey that the broader aspects of this war bring in energy and migration. It is a terrible tragedy that migration has become a weapon of war of cynical countries, such as Russia and Belarus. The latter encouraged people to fly in from the Middle East, and indeed flew some of them in, and then brought them to the borders and left them in over the borders pretending to them that it was Germany. That is what is going on. I have no doubt that Putin knew what he was doing by bombing entire cities so that the people would flee Ukraine into Europe. We have had the biggest humanitarian disaster since the Second World War in terms of up to 7 million more displaced, with the vast majority having to flee into Europe. On the food issue, there has been an improvement made in terms of the opening up of the Black Sea but there are real concerns, between a combination of climate change and the war, in terms of future hunger in the world.

With the evolution of the Common Security and Defence Policy, it is the best place for Ireland to be in right now. That is my view. It has evolved. We have contributed to peace missions in that context and to interoperability training missions, etc., which make sense, particularly when we are in serving with the UN in Lebanon. We work with Polish troops and work with other countries which are members of the EU, and it makes sense that the same equipment is used and that there is interoperability. That is how our policies have evolved. We are not a member of NATO. That is clear to NATO. It is clear to us. We are not politically neutral but we are militarily neutral.

On the possibility of a citizens' assembly, hopefully the existing ones will come to a conclusion shortly. I would like to think that sometime next year, we could commence a citizens' assembly in relation to the broader issue of neutrality and defence, etc., because we have issues around cybersecurity and broader issues in terms of our vulnerability at sea. In terms of all of the data that goes under our seabeds, we must be mindful of the economic presence in Ireland. We also must be mindful of how vulnerable are we in terms of radar. That is why the Commission on the Defence Forces has articulated the need for a significant increase in defence spending to protect ourselves as a country. We would have the lowest level of military expenditure across Europe and I smile at times when the Deputies opposite talk about militarisation. The one thing Ireland has not done in the past 20 years, 30 years or 40 years is to militarise.

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