Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I wish to return to the general principle. It is more than 100 years since this Dáil was established. We will soon be celebrating the anniversary of De Valera's 1937 Constitution, Article 15.2.10 of which states: "The sole and exclusive power of making laws for the State is hereby vested in the Oireachtas: no other legislative authority has power to make laws for the State." This is not a case of the Oireachtas making laws for the State. There are amendments that have not been reached in the Seanad and are not going to be reached here. They have never once been discussed in this Oireachtas. The President is, of course, part of the Oireachtas. The President will have to scrutinise them but, according to the Constitution, he has 14 days to scrutinise every Bill that we are ramming through now, and he has to sign them. He does not have a discretion. He has either to sign them or send them to the Supreme Court. Lots of people will protest that he signs this, that or the other. He or she, whoever the President is, has to sign the Bill. This is not the Oireachtas making laws. It is not what we were elected to do.

This point has been raised and the Ceann Comhairle has expressed his sympathies with the Minister. The Minister is a fundamentally decent man from a fundamentally decent party but does it ever occur to Ministers to say “No”, this is not how we do our business”, or "I will not be led by the nose around the place by my Civil Service and there is a point at which I say 'No'?" That is what it is; what is happening here is patently obvious to anybody. I do not wish to sound anti-Civil Service but we have to have a democratic Government that controls the Civil Service, which implements its programme and its legislative agenda and does so at its behest, not a Government that is elected and Ministers go into a Department and says, “What do I have to sign now? What do I have to do now? Where do I have to go now? Oh God maybe they will not like the fact that we cannot discuss this Bill. Well sure, if they do not, too bad.”

I remember once when Deputy Howlin was a Minister I thought it was bad – and it was bad – Bills were guillotined. It was very rare though. In one instance I tabled an amendment and the civil servant smiled and said “We are not going to reach your amendment, are we because we are going to guillotine the Bill?” The best of luck to him, a much cleverer man than I, a far more knowledgeable man, maybe a man much better versed in the Constitution, but he did not have a mandate; I did. That is what democracy is supposed to be about. My constituents could get rid of me; indeed they did and they will again some day, I have no doubt about that. It is a matter of when; that is the same for all of us. However, you cannot get rid of the civil servant sitting beside you. That is not a democracy. It is a democracy when if you do not like what is happening, you can change it. We seem impervious to change. It does not matter whether it is the Green Party, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the best of luck to Sinn Féin when it gets into power. It is not going to change much, unless it changes how we do our business and the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924, which was the result of a War of Independence which was what it was all about, is addressed.

Boris Johnson is an abomination but at least he implemented his programme. At least it is a democracy over there and they are getting rid of him, but we cannot get rid of our permanent government here because nobody takes control of anything. It is just, “Where is the latest photo opportunity?” I am asking the Minister of State a question. I have no doubt about his commitment to democracy or to the ideals on which he was elected. At what point does it become unacceptable to bring a Bill through two Houses and give neither House time to discuss many of its provisions? How is that democratic? How does he think that is acceptable?

Before we get into the minutiae of the Bill, although we will not get into the minutiae, can the Minister of State answer that overarching question? It is not just this Bill. There is another Bill coming through in a couple of minutes and it is the same conveyor belt process.

How we do our business is the Government is elected to govern and to be held accountable. At the previous election, I noted there were some Ministers giving out about civil servants and that they could not implement their programme. It is the job of the senior Minister and junior Ministers to manage the Department. This is not a Minister managing a Department but a Department managing a Minister. I am sorry. This is not personal and it has nothing to do with the Minister of State. This is simply unacceptable and undemocratic. It is not what the State and Constitution are about. When this legislation goes to the courts, as it will given that it is a complete mess, deference will be given. What the Oireachtas, in its wisdom, is doing is failing to even consider the Bill. It might as well be toilet paper but the courts will give deference to what the Oireachtas does here. I am sorry but I will not vote any further on this Bill. It is a sham, not because I disagree with what the Minister of State wants to achieve but because how he is doing it is wrong.

I look forward to the questions that I have raised being answered.

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