Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I thank all Members who contributed to the debate and I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. In the debate today some useful issues were raised and useful points were made to inform our thinking on this. The health budget is €22 billion. I am the last person on this side of the House who would not argue for more money, but the Minister of State has had the health brief for two years, and she will be aware that even if we fill an articulated lorry with money and deposit it at the Miesian Plaza or at the headquarters of the HSE, it may not make that much difference because of systemic blocks. I am not blaming individuals but it is absolutely frustrating to watch how the system operates and does not operate. I have raised other smaller but important matters locally with regard to how things pan out.

We are talking here about a 340- or 350-bed hospital. We are not building the moon, although this is a substantial project and we do want to get it right. We cannot do much about solar panels because the die is cast and it is there now. I will say, however, that we may have learned our lessons. Somehow or other in this country we keep repeating mistake after mistake. Politicians get blamed for the whole thing and it is important to note that we are ultimately responsible for the officials. There are some very good public servants but it is important we do not allow our hand to be moved too much on the page, that we, as politicians, take matters seriously, and that we are careful of expert advice.

I will not start to list them but I can recount many examples during my time in public life, both at local and at national levels, of advice given that turned out to be, within three or four years, a load of cock and bull, and contradicted. We must be careful of that.

Deputy McGrath referred to the site. After the work had started, I went up one day to look around the site. At that stage, there were trucks excavating and drawing the rubble out. In the construction industry, it is called "muck shifting" The trucks were like ants crawling out of a hole. Streets and streets were congested. They are narrow streets and it is a difficult site. It is what it is and we must try to work with it now.

On the response around the report, obviously it is disappointing for the committee. We have made our views very clear on that. I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, to convey this to the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly. We have also made it clear to the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Robert Watt, and everyone else who has listened to the committee on this. We have a job of work to do.

On a positive note, however, there will be greater accountability regarding the claims, including regular updates on that matter and on the volume of the claims. There is an extraordinary amount. There are probably between 1,200 and 1,300 at the moment, if it has not already exceeded that. I have the January figure, which is the latest figure we have, and it is substantial. It shows the open nature of the project. I understand this is in the context of a large project. When we were on site, I asked for examples of some of these claims and what they arose from. Sometimes it is for small enough stuff, such as the movement of a window or changing the head of a door. It is relatively small stuff but it is important that as much as possible is tied down in the original contract.

I also welcome the acceptance, which I hope is not just verbal and that we will see this in years to come with actions, that the emphasis will be on functionality and value for money. I do not want us to recreate what was built in the Soviet Union in the 1940s but we can have good functional buildings without having vanity projects for architects. This is to be welcomed. The Department has introduced a major capital projects function to oversee the application of the public spending code for capital projects worth more than €100 million and to provide the necessary challenge function to ensure that future proposals represent value for money. That is also to be welcomed, once it is not left lying on a page.

On the timelines and the delays, the hospital was supposed to be completed this year. Someone said that hopefully it will be in 2024. As far as we can ascertain, we are now talking about mid-2024 for completion of construction and then some nine months for a fit out after that. Realistically, we are now looking at early 2025. The contractor was off site for longer than necessary during Covid. After the lockdown was lifted, they refused to go back on site for a number of months. That is not acceptable and it needs to be addressed. Obviously, we did not foresee Covid as the contract was being signed. I do not expect anybody to be able to foresee these things but there is a lesson there for the future.

With regard to the requirements around the number of staff on site, that does not appear to be there. If it is there, it is very weak. We have asked questions around the number of staff on site. If there is a low number of staff on site, there will be runaway inflation because the longer the project drags on, the higher the cost goes up. I want to highlight this to the House.

If he does nothing else, I hope the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, reads the transcript of this debate tonight. It would be good. I welcome that the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, is in the Chamber for the debate but the Minister for Health needs to read the transcript of this debate.

Lessons need to be learned about the type of contract used because of the issues that have arisen since it started construction. There is potential for a huge number of legal challenges and then there is the escalation in the overall cost. What about when pursue large projects in future? We have some high-risk projects and the broadband plan is another. I will not go into it now but it is a high-risk, high-cost project with a high exposure for the taxpayer. While we of course want these things done in that we all want broadband and we all want the children's hospital, it is important that these things are done differently and there are not so many loose ends. We cannot have runaway costs and then have the taxpayer picking up the bill, as well as timelines that go far beyond what was originally put in the contracts when they were originally signed. I want to emphasise that.

I welcome the contributions from Deputies Verona Murphy and Mattie McGrath and the Minister of State. Hopefully we can push along with this project and the lessons learned from it can be used into the future.

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