Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I am sharing time with Deputy O'Donoghue. I am pleased to speak broadly in support of this Bill. At the Business Committee and in subsequent communications, we agreed to progress this legislation as a matter of urgency. There is an old saying that justice delayed is justice denied. The Minister of State, as a practitioner of the law, understands the problems that arise from delays. There are many reasons for those delays. The backlogs in all the courts, particularly in Circuit Court sittings, are enormous. It could take seven, eight or even ten years before some Circuit Court cases are held. That type of predicted longevity is not good.

I am not hung up on the question of whether a garda acting as a court presenter must be a sergeant, as proposed in the Sinn Féin amendment, but I would say any participating garda should, obviously, have some relevant experience of the court system. One gets that experience by learning and participating in the Courts Service. Tús maith leath na hoibre. Any time I have been at court sittings, I have seen several members of An Garda Síochána waiting and waiting, whatever the delays are, and perhaps not being called at all in the end. It is a complete and utter waste of Garda time. I am all for proper, fair and speedy justice. However, as Deputy Durkan noted, one might not always get the justice one expects from the justice system, or it might not be justice at all in one's eyes, and it is frightfully expensive for those who have to pay to access it. I will speak about the free legal aid system presently.

It is not acceptable to have ten or 12 gardaí attending court sittings when they have so many other duties to deal with in communities. In the division in my area, especially in the Cahir-Cashel district, the Garda numbers were never as low as they are now. I salute the community gardaí there, who are brilliant. Sergeant Ray Moloney, who has now moved on, was top class, as are the team members, Garda Jenny Gough and Garda Judy Davern. Last Friday, we had the launch of the amalgamation of two schools in Cahir into a new building, which has been 35 years or longer in the planning. It was wonderful to see Garda Kevin McGuinness of the traffic corps, Garda Davern and Garda Gough there, led by a piper. Pupils from the two schools came together in what is known as the old convent yard, which is now a day care centre, and walked the almost half a mile to the new building. There was great excitement and it was lovely that the gardaí were able to give the safety of an escort, led by the piper, to the new school, Bunscoil na Cathrach. It was a momentous day. The new school will have some 380 pupils, although the children in sixth class will only have a couple of weeks there before moving on. The project has come to completion under the stewardship of the principal, Mr. Horan.

It is great to have local gardaí available for events like that. I know that some of them, including in this case, come into work when they are not on duty. In many areas, they don the uniform and do that kind of work. They are with the people, for the people and they stand with the people. No police force in the word can police without the support of the people. It is a two-way street. Community gardaí get down and dirty with the people, visiting them and getting involved in community-focused events, including community alert and neighbourhood watch schemes. The new property marking scheme, which will be starting in my village shortly, with the assistance of former members of Muintir na Tíre and our own SOLAS team, is a very good initiative.

The free legal aid service must be reformed. Why does it take so long to introduce reform to such schemes by way of legislation? I am all for free legal aid for people who are not able to afford the defence under the justice system to which they are entitled in any democratic society. However, I also am in favour of three strikes and you are out. I am not for a revolving door situation whereby people can come back for free legal aid umpteen times. In some cases, individuals have received it 15 or 16 times. They are milking the system. Legal practitioners, too, must take a share of the blame for this revolving system. The victims are lost in all of this. We have a victims' charter and everything else but we have been very slow to support victims. I once helped a family in a case involving a heinous murder. The family members were trying to find out when the person who was convicted would be getting out and possibly returning to the locality. There is no follow-through from the justice system in supporting the families of loved ones whose lives have been taken away and who have been swept from them.

Huge reforms are needed. This Bill deals with only one of those reforms, arising from a ruling by the High Court that the prosecuting garda must be the garda who investigated the offence and issued the summons. That will require more and more gardaí to attend court sittings and the waste of time involved is shocking. I am not saying the current system should be diminished in any way. We have competent gardaí to perform this duty and it is normally experienced members who do so. However, having such a large number of gardaí held up is not acceptable.

I have to mention Clonmel Garda station. I referred to the amalgamation of the schools in Cahir that took 30 or 40 years to achieve. The issue with the Garda station in Clonmel has been going on for 50 or 60 years. We have planning permission and a wonderful design for a brand new station and a site has been found. The project was included in different packages and bundles of stations all over the country, including Sligo, Clonakilty and others. There has been change after change, the latest of which was a gigantic one. Gardaí in Clonmel, under the leadership of Superintendent Willie Leahy, as well as Chief Superintendent Derek Smart in Thurles, have been left bewildered. The design was done and we accepted we were in a bundle with two or three other stations. We understood there would be contractors appointed to build the Garda stations. Now, however, the station has been locked into a tripartite arrangement with the children's court. In my experience - Deputy O'Donoghue has a lot more experience than I do in this area - there are specialised builders who work on court buildings, which normally are very stately buildings with a very finessed finish. I am not saying Garda stations should be any less stately but they are, pardon the phrase, a different animal.

We are concerned that this will lead to further undue delays and prevarications. The Minister for Justice visited two weeks ago and saw the state of the station, as have several of her predecessors, as well as the Taoiseach. It is Dickensian and shameful. We can no longer expect our gardaí to give a service to the public from such a building. It is not acceptable for the public to have to access it. It is just not fit for purpose. The building is leased from the county council, which wants it back for many reasons. As I said, a lovely site has been found, on the location of the old Kickham Barracks, planning permission has been granted and the design and everything else is ready to go. The station should not be bundled with any part of the Courts Service. We have accepted being bundled with other Garda stations around the country. When it comes to tendering for projects, different skill sets are needed for court buildings, requiring different architects and everything else. As I understand it, the court project is not even at design stage. If I am wrong on that, the Minister of State will correct me. The new arrangement is not good enough for the people of Clonmel and south Tipperary and it is not good enough for the members of An Garda Síochána there. It cannot be allowed to carry on.

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