Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

It is, of course. This is supposed to be a reforming Bill. I thank the Acting Chairman for his advice but I am, of course, referring to the Bill.

I am referring to serious anomalies. There will be no lay chairperson, a major flaw. What does the Government have against laypeople? Is everyone not entitled to exercise his or her intellect and to respect, whereby he or she can bring another perspective to the table? No, the legal eagles want the power. The Attorney General, the highest legal officer in the land, will be there in an advisory capacity, even though there have been some recent decisions in which he has scratched his head and asked what had happened. I mean nothing personal against the Attorney General but his office was there. There will be four on four and the legal eagles will win out again because there will be no lay chairperson, a major fundamental flaw. It is a major design, architectural flaw that will ensure the Bill will not reform, will not do what it says on the tin, will not do what people are waiting for, and will do nothing along the lines of the efforts the former Minister, Shane Ross - I again salute him - made to tidy up the issue and to bring some sense of normality and fairness to the process.

I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, and the Minister for Justice may have attended an earlier session of the debate. I understand the Minister of State has some skin in the game, given he is a qualified barrister. I say "fair dues" to him in that regard - I have nothing against that - but whenever a debate gets around to our, smaller groups' speaking slots, the senior Minister will have left the Chamber, like a cat out through a skylight. You would think someone was chasing after them with a pellet gun. You cannot do that, of course, because of animal cruelty laws, but that is the way it is. It is patently insulting and downright disrespectful to the section of the electorate that sends us here. I refer to me, my colleagues in the Rural Independent Groups and other small groups as well. It happens all the time. Surely the Government can organise a structure whereby if the Minister has to leave before the debate has concluded and if a second session has been scheduled, a Minister can attend the second session for a while to listen to our views. Our views are not weird or off the wall. Our voices, and the voices of the people who put us here, have to be heard too.

To return to the Bill, the three names will be recommended to the Government. I have sat on many an interview board as a voluntary board member of both a national school and a vocational education committee, VEC, school. There is always a ranking system. The interview panel tries to get the best person available and, in second level at least, there was always an education inspector who was very good and gave sound advice. On many occasions, there were two wonderful ladies who had retired from the Sisters of Mercy order, who were brilliant in their knowledge and their in-depth line of questioning and advice for us laypeople. I was the chairman of the panel many times and I would not have been able to do that without the expert advice of those people. We recommended the candidates in order of our preference in case, for some reason, the number one choice could not leave their previous job or could not take up the new job. We always had to do that and we would give three or four options in order of preference, but that will not be the case following the commencement of this Bill. Three names will be handed to the Secretary General and the Minister's Department, and there will be a pushing and shoving at the Cabinet meeting, a nod and wink and whatever. The political appointee will get the job every time. It is plain and simple. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck. The Bill will not change that one iota.

We talk about juntas in African countries and elsewhere. We fought here and got our freedom and our democracy. We got the courts and the legal system but it has not served us well. It may have served us in the main, but I could mention countless instances where it has not. I could mention Tom Kennedy's family in Tipperary, who have suffered an appalling vista of abuse, Kieran Hartley, whose case is currently before a Waterford court, where the witnesses were locked out of the court, or my own case, but I will not because, thankfully, the jury saw through what was going on. It is totally, scandalously political and it is what is going on up and down this country. That needs to be tackled and it is what the then Minister, Mr. Ross, was trying to tackle. As I said, I fought with him on transport issues and many other issues relating to rural Ireland but I am that kind of person. I deal with issues as they come before me. Above all, I like to be straight and honest and support issues where I can and if I can point out flaws, that is what I do.

The Bill contains many failures and inadequacies, the main one being that relating to na triúr ainmneacha. They will be on a piece of paper in a white envelope with no ranking. That is not an interview process. An interview process is meant to pick out the best person from the four, eight, 100 or however many people come before the panel. It should pick the best person who has applied to do the job, in the opinions of the eight people on the panel, with the advice of the Attorney General. There will be plenty of advice in the room. Moreover, although I may stand to be corrected on this, the Chief Justice will chair the meetings and will be available to offer advice. In any event, there will be plenty of advice on the legal side, so why will the Government not allow for a lay chairperson? He or she would not be Mattie McGrath coming in, running amok and wrecking the place. That person would respect the place. Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí, mol na daoine agus tiocfaidh said.

We should get people of valuable experience. I do not mean people from NGOs. I was shocked to learn we now have 36,000 NGOs, costing €5.5 billion annually. I want ordinary, true laypeople to be involved. I refer to people of the country, that is, ordinary people who have lived their lives and raised their families like any normal person and who have a lot to offer. Many of them have done tremendous work in voluntary organisations throughout the country, unlike the NGOs. You are nobody now if you are not an NGO. We need to re-evaluate that system also, although that is not included this Bill and I will not get into that. The Group of States Against Corruption, GRECO, has on several occasions criticised what is going on, the delay, the inaction and the obfuscation that went on when the then Minister, Mr. Ross, was trying to make changes. I have ears and can hear what goes on. Tá dhá chluas agam.

I could hear what was going on in this building, outside of the Chamber. People said they would make sure it was buried, and it was buried. All that was lacking was the funeral and the praise. It was buried because it was not wanted. It was not because of who the former Minister, Shane Ross, was but because it was unpalatable to some. It was trasna na habhann, across the river.

We had a seismic shift here. I am looking at the Acting Chair here. I should not comment on the Chair but I am looking at Sinn Féin, which is champing at the bit to get into power. It has made many promises. I will live in hope and wait and see. The system is so cumbersome now that it will take a fair amount of courage and dedication to change it. You would need a jackhammer or a pickaxe to get the hands of the very senior civil servants, such as Mr. Watt and others, senior officialdom, some NGOs and the whole cabal that exists off the handlebars of power and to give a small bit back to the people and to his House. We have token power here. We saw this in how this House acted during the Covid pandemic. Any legislation requested was passed. We saw legislation on hearsay included in emergency legislation on health during a pandemic. That was the biggest joke of all time. There was not a word from any of the major parties here, including the main Opposition party. That was put in. That was the boldest, most audacious move. The Government thinks it can do what it likes with the people, including the people in here as seen in the inclusion of that legislation on hearsay. It is devastating that hearsay can be allowed as evidence. Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi go raibh fear i dTiobraid Árainn a bhfuil póca ina léine aige. That is what hearsay is. I will finish but this is useless, toothless and fruitless.

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