Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

Deputy McNamara has repeatedly demanded that I, on behalf of the Government, be accountable to this House. He is right to demand that, but in order to hold me to account he has to let me finish and answer him. I am trying to answer him.

The point I am making is that either House of the Oireachtas already has the power to annul any regulation it wants at any time it wants, but these amendments go much further. They do not just make these Houses the legislative body, which they are, they also make them the regulator. It is in the amendments that every single regulation proposed would have to be voted on and passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. A very important democratic safeguard is in place, which is that either House can annul any regulation. If we move to a position whereby any regulation the Government wants to pass has to be voted on and passed actively by these Houses, we have moved into a completely different place where the legislative body becomes the regulator. I will speak to why that simply will not work in my contribution later on.

The Deputy asked directly whether the Covid pass was about vaccine uptake or keeping people safe. The rationale is based on keeping people safe. The rationale, which any of us are free to disagree with, is that the Covid pass is being applied to higher risk environments. There is a very real concern that there are two risks to unvaccinated people who go into those higher risk environments. The first and most important is that they are at a much higher risk of serious illness if they are unvaccinated and, second, there is also a higher transmission risk. These are the two public health rationales for the Covid pass.

Various Deputies asked a very important question on the group of people who do not necessarily choose not to get vaccinated, but who cannot be vaccinated. We know there are situations where people cannot be vaccinated. I am very happy to keep this under constant review and I have spoken to public health officials about it previously. The last time we discussed it, the point was made to me that many of the people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons are more vulnerable much of the time, by virtue of having an underlying condition. By giving an exemption, we would be saying to a higher risk individual that there is an exemption allowing that person to go into a higher risk environment. There is a real and genuine concern about that. We can debate whether it is right or wrong but the concern is motivated only by keeping those people safe. That is the rationale at present. It is something we need to keep under review for obvious reasons, some of which have been debated here.

No one is suggesting permanent immunity. I heard the Deputy and I understand the modelling. The point about the modelling was that it did not model the different curves. As the Deputy is aware, the data we now have is that different vaccines wane to different levels and at different speeds. I have not seen exactly what the Deputy referenced, but my guess is that a piece of modelling was probably done by the modelling team that simply did not factor in any waning. That is not a judgment as to whether there is waning or not. It might simply have occurred before the modelling team had the ability to model for it. To be clear, nobody is suggesting these vaccines do not wane. I suggest we have incontrovertible evidence that they do, hence the importance of the boosters.

Specifically on the Deputy's constituent, I can clarify that the Covid pass is not required for swimming pools. They are exempt so that is some good news, hopefully. Nor is the pass required for personal services. I know the Deputy was not suggesting that it is, but he referenced haircuts. My heart breaks for that person and that is the case for all of us. This is an awful situation to be in, but in that individual case that is the situation.

Deputy Nolan raised a major concern, which is the impact of all of this on non-Covid care, and whether it is having an effect and already leading to more severe illness. I think it is. Have there been delays in diagnosis? Undoubtedly, there have been. There is a huge issue with the impact this has had on non-Covid care in Ireland and everywhere else. It is very serious. However, where I disagree with Deputy Nolan, and Deputy McGrath might have made the same point, is that somehow having these measures in place is the cause of some of the impacts on non-Covid care. The opposite is the case. One of the benefits of these measures in suppressing the virus is to free up as much of the healthcare system for cancer care, paediatrics and everything else that is required.

I acknowledge Deputy Shortall's support for the Bill. She said that I may not be that easy to work with. My response is that the Deputy may not have been the easiest to work with at all times either. However, I have genuinely tried to make meaningful moves that do not seem to be acknowledged. There was a request that members of the Joint Committee on Health be notified of regulations. I have signed three regulations since then and my understanding is that committee members should have been notified of all of them. I have written to the Department and corresponded with the Chair of the committee to that effect. That is something that was requested.

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