James Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputies for the great interest they have shown in this matter. We have had just over three hours of a debate and nearly all the speaking slots were taken up. Given the demands on Deputies' time with committees and other work in the Houses, the fact that so many Members came in to express their views is testament to their interest in youth justice and the issues underlying it.

I acknowledge the work of all those in our Garda youth diversion projects across the country: youth workers, family liaison workers and juvenile liaison officers in An Garda Síochána. The challenges they faced during the Covid period in continuing to interact with those young people who were coming into contact with the system were not easy. I had a good degree of engagement and conversations with those youth workers on the challenges they were facing. I acknowledge the great work they are doing on the ground. I also acknowledge the work my Department officials have done in bringing together this youth justice strategy and working with the various NGOs, experts and researchers across the country.

There are many similarities between the approaches to youth justice and community safety, which have been outlined today. Support, intervention and diversion are key aspects of both. As mentioned, there are many and very complex reasons young people are drawn into criminality and also why people feel safe within their communities. This means there is no simple solution to the underlying causes. What we as a Government hope to achieve is to build safer and stronger communities. However, that does not simply mean more gardaí on the streets. That is only one aspect of the approach we must take. What we are doing is moving back to the original concept of policing, which involves community policing, engagement and safety and not simply more gardaí to bang more heads together. Engagement with young people, in particular, in our communities by An Garda Síochána and supporting community groups is important. Policing is one only aspect of what we need to do.

As mentioned by the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, Ireland compares favourably with international standards on safety. We recognise, however, that for many in our communities that is not the reality of daily life. That is why the youth justice strategy and the community safety policy of the Department of Justice both focus on community engagement and community-based supports. It is no accident that the most disadvantaged communities suffer disproportionately from problems of crime and antisocial behaviour. While the community itself is an essential part in developing local solutions, that legacy of underinvestment and neglect must be addressed. Solutions to address the needs of the community should rightly rest with the community. It is our place in government to provide those necessary and proper resources and supports in the right place at the right time to address the needs of the community and support communities and young people across the State.

A large number of issues were raised by Deputies and while it would not be possible to address them all I will address some them. If Deputies want to contact me directly I will be happy to answer any of their questions. A number of Deputies asked who populates the various bodies that were mentioned in the Minister of State’s opening remarks on the strategy. Our youth justice oversight group is chaired by Deaglán Ó Briain, principal officer, while the governance and strategy group is chaired by Ben Ryan, assistant secretary general. Both are members of both groups. The membership of both groups includes the Probation Service, Prison Service, An Garda Síochána, Tusla, Department of Health, Department of Education, Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Department for Rural and Community Development, the HSE, Oberstown Children Detention Campus and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. There is a broad spectrum represented on these oversight groups to ensure they do not have only a Department of Justice focus. We have sought to adopt a cross-departmental approach unlike Governments in the past which have been rightly criticised for having silos in different Departments. What we have done here will hopefully become a template for future strategies in involving the various Departments and getting ownership across them for solving these types of issues.

Deputy Catherine Murphy raised the issue of the oversight group and its membership. I have addressed that. She also emphasised the importance of involving lived experience and that children would have a voice in what we are doing, a point which was also raised by a number of Deputies. That has been extremely important. The voices of children, both those in the system and those who have been through it and left it, should be heard in helping to engage with and direct what is happening. Ultimately, this is about changing those lives and establishing whether what is in place has or has not been effective, what has and has not worked and why certain strategies have not worked in the past. The experience of the NGOs has been greatly involved in developing this strategy.

Regarding the extension of involvement to eight to 12 year olds, I appreciate some Deputies have questioned why they are being involved. We have been very careful about this. We are not extending the Garda diversion programme to this group per se. The Garda youth diversion project is a specialised youth service. Where those youth workers can identify young people aged between eight to 12 who are at risk or heading towards entering the system, they can bring their experience to bear. However, we are very careful this is not bringing them into the criminal justice system and in ensuring there will be no stigmatising around this. They are not being brought into the full system. Where we have youth workers on the ground - unfortunately, currently there are not those other services that should be in place to do that role - they can intervene to help try to divert those young children from criminal behaviour. They will be known to those youth workers. Unfortunately, often their older siblings may already be in the youth justice system. We are handling and treading very carefully in how we do that. The youth justice strategy is very much a living document that can be adapted. That is why we have many oversight groups, whose membership is overlapping to ensure what we are doing is being done right and that there are feedback loops. For example, the researchers in the Research Evidence into Policy, Programmes and Practice, REPPP, project in Limerick and the youth workers are constantly feeding into the system. They are part of the oversight strategies to ensure that we are doing this right but adapting as we go along. That is why some of our programmes such as the Greentown project has won a European award. We can become a world leader in our youth justice strategies.

However, that can only be done through research and having the various feedback loops from those who are engaged in the system on a daily basis.

The question as to why we do not also extend other-use services was asked. That is certainly something that must happen and that we are doing as well, and it is why those other Departments are also involved in the oversight groups. Young people need to have those outlets. This is what we are trying to do through the antisocial behaviour forum as well, where we have tried to tackle scramblers and we are now looking at youth knife crime, which is very serious. We are trying to find ways to put supports into the communities as well so those young people can have other youth services and not simply those involving the criminal justice system. I have had engagement with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, to try to unlock any blockages which may also be there for early school leavers trying to access various training programmes. It has in the past been a requirement that an applicant have junior certificate maths to do an apprenticeship, for example, but many young school leavers do not have it because they left before they did the junior certificate. Thus when they get back onto the right path, if you like, and a lot of intensive work has been done and they are getting some work experience, they suddenly find their path blocked. Little things like that can make a huge difference by unlocking those blockages for young people who are changing their behaviour and want to do apprenticeships and other training.

Deputy Lahart raised the issue of having young people's voices heard and I have addressed that.

Deputy Daly raised the issue of restorative justice. I absolutely agree restorative justice is a huge part of this. We have partnered with Ulster University to train the trainers around the importance of this and how to use restorative justice in a careful way to help young people confront their crimes. Very often, part of the problem is young people engaged in crime do not realise what they are doing does not begin and end with one night's criminal activity and that the impact for the victims can be ongoing and life-changing. Allowing them to understand and witness the impact of what they have done is where restorative justice comes into it.

Deputy Costello raised the issues around eight-year-olds to 11-year-olds. I tell the Deputy language like "scooping up" young people and bringing them into the criminal justice system certainly does not relate to what we are doing. I encourage the Deputy to engage with myself or the officials because language like that is deeply unhelpful.

Deputy Paul Donnelly touched on the issue of visiting teachers for the Traveller community. I will certainly raise that with the Minister for Education.

See this speech in context