Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent) | Oireachtas source

The Minister will forgive me if I do not put questions in the four minutes that I have, but I will raise a number of questions.

Notwithstanding the report on retained organs in adult patients by Michaela Willis in 2009, and notwithstanding the report by Dr. Deirdre Madden in 2006, and the 2009 Carter report into the Rotunda Hospital, at some stage along the line I believe there was a Dunne report that was not published, and perhaps the Minister might clarify that. Within that background we have practices and procedures that were clearly ignored and, unfortunately, perinatal organs were sent off to be incinerated along with refuse. We have heard that.

Let us see what has happened here. The management became aware of this way back in April or May 2020. They then notified the Department. Can the Minister tell me what the Department did? The Minister has not mentioned Department's role in this. The management contacted the Department, and I understand that they wrote specifically to the chief clinical officer, and in the incident report they pointed out what had happened. They were asked whether it was a serious incident. The answer was "No", but that there was a risk of adverse publicity. Again, there are more echoes of the cervical cancer debacle. It is the exact same thing: concern about adverse publicity. It is not about the patients, their families or the perinatal organs. Will the Minister tell me what the chief clinical officer and Department do? We are here today discussing this because of "RTÉ Investigates". We are not here due to a hospital telling us that they had made a mistake, that they had learnt from it and had immediately contacted the families. We are here because of "RTÉ Investigates". We learned from the "RTÉ Investigates" programme that some of the families had learned of what happened only the night before. This has been raised already but I am raising it again now.

Specifically, what did the Department do? What did the hospital do? This goes back to well before Covid. I understand that it goes back to the period from May to November 2019, which is way before Covid. Then we come forward into the Covid period, and of course there was a problem with Covid, but what happened in the meantime? What about the practices on the ground and the policy of open disclosure that should have caused the hospital to hold its hands up to the Department and say "we have been very silly here, we have held onto perinatal organs for too long, we do not have a proper system in place and we need help"?

Let us fast forward. How did this arise in the first place? I have had personal experience, which I will not go into, of systems review. I despair. I do not have much confidence in it but I will hold my words until I see it. Certainly, let me say that my own professional and personal experience is not good in relation to systems review.

The Minister has said that he is seeking assurances. The Minister will need to do a lot more than seek assurances. I am tired of assurances. As my colleague, Deputy Pringle has said, I am sure that if we asked CUMH for assurances they would have given to us the assurances we wanted. We do not want assurances. We want to know what happened. Since 2012 there was an obligation on them with regard to procedures, practices and processes with which they have failed utterly to comply. The Minister is telling us today about legislation, but that is the least we might do.

I listened to the Minister's speech. Is it the case that he only learned of this matter from the "RTÉ Investigates" programme and that he did not find out about it from his Department during the whole year when they knew? Are we to believe that the Minister knew nothing and only learned about it from "RTÉ Investigates"? What has happened with communication if that is the case? At any stage, did anyone realise that this was something they should report properly to the Department? If they did, the Department should have reacted properly by saying that it was serious, that it was more than an incident, that it was painful and wrong, and that the hospital had utterly failed to comply with procedures. Then they should have asked "Now what are we going to do about it?" with their hands up. Did that happen?

I am the first to say that we all get caught at committee meetings, but it is unacceptable for Government backbenchers not to be here to ask questions. It speaks volumes about what they place importance on. Then they complain when they do not have time for other subjects. I will be caught like this later on tonight, and I will be the first to put my hands up about it, but this is a very serious issue and a serious lack of participation.

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