Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I will start where Deputy Kenny left off in referring to a meeting he and I had recently with relatives of a victim of tragic circumstances and a brutal crime. They spoke about what the Deputy referred to, namely, that they felt left out of the entire process. In fact, they feel they were almost victimised again by the criminal process. We do not have proper formal procedures in place regarding interactions and communications with victims and their families. It is vital when we talk about operating a system that involves mutual recognition of sentences and allowing for the transfer of prisoners that we also take into account the victims of crimes. It is an absolutely vital piece of work. The Minister of State indicated that we are talking about a small number of cases, so we should be able to build that into whatever structures we set up and ensure it is adequately resourced.

I welcome what the Minister of State said regarding the fact that there will be discretion on the issuing state to take into account that transfers should only be carried out if they are beneficial from the point of view of rehabilitation. We believe that they should happen if possible, if it avoids collective punishment of a family that is not necessarily responsible for what a member of the family has done. Prisoners are in prison for a wide range of crimes so every case must be dealt with individually.

We must move away from the position we sometimes come across in the media or that some of us intuitively take that we must be hard on crime and on criminals and that prisons should not be easy places. We all have an understanding of what works best at this stage. The best-case scenario is where the loss of freedom is a sufficient penalty and once the system of law enforcement, followed by the court system, can move relatively speedily and that adequate sentencing is provided, combined with rehabilitative resources where necessary. This can be a lot more beneficial from the point of view of avoiding recidivism, which is vital.

We are talking about the transposition of a European decision. We are to some degree behind on the delivery of the measure and we must get it under way. I agree wholeheartedly with some of what has been said regarding a major element lacking due to Brexit, in the sense that we must amend the legislation to deal with prisoners in British prisons or prisoners here who seek to be transferred to prison in Britain and allow for such transfers.

The Minister of State indicates that there are significant technical difficulties with sentencing rules. Like Deputy Martin Kenny, I believe that, if at all possible, we would be provided with a brief and information in that regard. I welcome that the Minister of State has outlined that this should be addressed on Committee Stage, but we must ensure that is done.

We are offering something that may benefit individuals and their families in a small number of cases. It may also be beneficial to society in that sense that it is better for all of us if we can put resources into individuals in prison that result in them not reoffending. It reduces the cost on the criminal justice system of having to take individuals into the prison system again. Given the huge cost attached to having someone in prison it would benefit society as well as the prisoners and their families.

We must look at the matter in the round in dealing with the whole gamut of criminal justice. We are talking about resourcing this particular system if we get the legislation through. I believe it is necessary. The Minister of State has spoken about proposed changes by the Department in areas such as the youth justice system. He is dealing with youth diversion projects at this point, including some in my constituency. This is vital as he will talk to people who are operating at the coalface and seeing what works and what does not work. We all know that there are cases where it is evident that we have failed people at the initial stages in their lives from the point of view of facilitating them and their families to end up in a better place rather than be stuck in the criminal justice system, as Deputy Kenny described it, in the futile and dangerous world of drug criminality in particular, but even on the periphery of it there is dysfunctionality and chaos that has a significant impact on society. We all constantly deal with issues concerning drug crime, drug debt intimidation and all the rest of it. I have stated many times previously that we must look at the whole issue. The programme for Government contains a commitment to a citizens' assembly on drugs and we must set it up as soon as possible. Sometimes regular people dealing with experts can bring us to a better place than decisions made in here within the confines of politics and whatever other constraints within which we operate. That is a vital first step. We must look at the overall system.

I welcome the proposals on the community safety forums, which could be an improvement on the JPCs, involving the likes of the HSE and other stakeholders regarding coming up with better solutions for delivering on the ground for communities. I also welcome the Guerin report and the fact that the Drogheda implementation board is being put into operation in the next while. I am somewhat worried about the likes of the Family Addiction Support Network. I believe the Department is dealing with funding for the Red Door Project in Drogheda. We must make sure that some of the initial promises and actions happen and that we can give an element of belief to people that this is going to be a body that might provide a template for how we can operate throughout the State. It is a matter of us getting all these pieces together. The vital piece is dealing with the likes of family supports whereby we can provide support to people at an early stage so that they can avoid going down this road.

We fully support the legislation. It could be beneficial. We are not necessarily talking about a large number of prisoners, but it could provide a benefit to families and society as a whole. We must look at the entire situation as regards also protecting victims, involving them in the conversation and making sure we put the best case scenario in operation as regards rehabilitation.

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