Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the Members for their contributions today. I thank the Deputies for their general support of the Bill, their recognition of the urgency to pass it and their co-operation in that regard. Some of the issues raised probably are not the most directly urgent in respect of the Supreme Court judgment but I will certainly follow up on them. I will respond to Members in writing. Deputy Pringle was the second Deputy to raise the issue of access to legal representation for employees in cases that are appealed to the courts. I will look into it to determine if there is some way to facilitate and assist with legal costs for the employee, when an employer has appealed the finding of the tribunal. I agree with the Deputy that when the unions are involved they should be able to use their resources to assist with legal representation. However, in some cases, it is not an option. I will certainly look into it, to see if we can do something in that space. It is not necessarily within the remit of my Department, but I will look at it across the system.

As I have set out, the purpose of this short Bill is to ensure the matters of immediate concern identified by the Supreme Court in its majority decision are dealt with. That is something that we are doing and we will do it as quickly as possible. As has already been discussed here today, the WRC's adjudication service is unable to proceed with cases where material facts are in dispute due to the fact that it does not have the required statutory power to administer an oath or affirmation. This is having a very real and substantial impact on those who wish to have their cases heard by an adjudicator in the WRC at present. All Members present want that issue to be addressed as quickly as possible to enable the WRC to hear cases, settle disputes and build on its track record of delivering a fair, simple, cost-effective and user-friendly service for employers and employees in the State.

A few common issues were raised by the Deputies. One concerned the backlog of cases. As I have already set out, it is critical that we deliver this legislation to give effect to the Supreme Court decision. For information, the WRC is continuing to schedule cases. I am informed that of the 1,601 hearings scheduled from 6 April to 22 June 2021, under 20% have been adjourned due to the adjudication officer concluding that it is necessary to adjourn to facilitate an oath or affirmation to be administered. Some hearings are still proceeding but there is a high number of adjournments. Therefore, we need to address it urgently.

There are a range of outcomes that may arise when hearings are scheduled. Proceedings may be postponed prior to the hearing date, the hearing may be completed, the issues may be case managed to reduce the matters to be dealt with if proceedings are adjourned or the case may be part-heard, requiring it to be rescheduled later. Settlement may also be reached prior to, or during the hearing. Deputy Catherine Murphy raised the issue of mediation. I will come back to her with the details of the cases involved. Given the public aspect of hearings, some participants might want to go back to mediation. That is something I will look at with a view to bringing some clarity on the issue.

On the public aspect of the hearings, I am aware that amendments are being tabled by Deputy O'Reilly and others. We will tease through the issues on Committee Stage. We have tried to accommodate various perspectives as best as possible. Perhaps it might be best to put the amendments into the regulations and guidelines. We must honour the clear ruling of the Supreme Court in this regard. I appreciate the amendments that are being put forward by the Members. We will look at them with a view to striking a balance. If we do not feel that we can include them in the legislation, we will be able to include them in regulations and guidelines to ensure that the adjudicators understand that in many cases, participants, by agreement, may want to have private hearings. We must try to do this as best we can.

On the defence of perjury, I appreciate that there has been some disquiet about this provision. However, the recognition that perjury is a serious offence is about ensuring there is a protection the administration of justice. Fraudulent claims affect reputations, cost both parties to a dispute money and time and undermine the laws that are designed to protect us all. I believe it is a matter of huge public importance to the victims of perjury that there at least be some penalty for those who attempt to inflict injustice on them. Clear statutory penalties will act as both a deterrent for the act of perjury and be significantly punitive to reflect the substantial effect that perjury can have. This offence has been aligned with the horizontal offence of perjury that already extends its scope to adjudicator hearings pursuant to the Criminal Justice (Perjury and Related Offences) Act 2021, which was passed in June. Deputy Ó Ríordáin referred to that but he may have missed a part of my speech. I referred to it and noted the legislation has been updated to reflect the legislation that was passed last week. I wish to highlight that when we engaged with committee members on the issue and in respect of Deputy O'Reilly's Bill, that legislation had not yet been passed and that piece was not included in it. Lest Deputies think we are trying to pull a fast one, we are not. We had to update the Bill to reflect the updated legislation that had been passed.

I have dealt with the issue of private hearings. We can address the issues on Committee Stage and discuss them with Members.

Members raised a few other issues in their contributions and I will revert to them directly to tease through them. I am happy to do so before Committee Stage next week, if we can.

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