Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank all the contributors to the debate. I am sorry I had to step out for some of it. I did not get to hear all the speeches but I did hear the ones at the start. I have an understanding of what the Deputies are trying to achieve with the legislation and I accept that it is a genuine effort. Others made speeches that covered a wide range of areas but did not focus on the legislation or the situation that as a Government we are trying to deal with. That is why we have asked for time in the amendment to consider the technicalities of this and the processes involved. As usual, however, the debate went in different directions. On that, I need to correct Deputy Tóibín. He is trying to cause another concern for older people. What the Taoiseach said last week was that many people are not in appropriate houses that suit their needs as they get older and that there is an opportunity to provide them with more suitable houses. I would use the term "right-sizing".

Much work was done on that by the last Government across different Departments, supported by many in this House, of an approach that first tries to keep people in their existing home, where possible. There are supports, grants, and other structures available to achieve that. For others, it is a better outcome to move into a more appropriate house that is designed for their needs, that has security, and so on. That has worked extremely well, because many housing associations and groups of people have come together all over the country and brought forward some lovely proposals. The Taoiseach referred to the opportunity to do more of that. That is what we want to do. It is not true to say that the Taoiseach wants to force anybody out of his or her house, or that he blames any older or ageing person for the housing crisis. It is unfair to say that in this House, but it is typical of the Deputy, who tries to cause consternation over something that is not true. However, we need to have a genuine and focused conversation on the needs of people who are ageing, on where they want to live, and on where they hope to live in the future. We recognise it is getting more costly if you do not own our own home. Some 85% of people in that age brackets own their own homes, but a high percentage does not. It can be difficult if rents are high. It is important that the State is involved in the provision of housing for those who are ageing. That is what the work has been about over the last couple of years.

I touched on some of the concerns the Government has with the Bill earlier and I went through them in detail. I was genuinely trying to set out some of our concerns and the work that needs to be done over the next six to 12 months. That is why we asked for time amendment on this. I accept there is a genuine effort in this legislation to deal with the concerns of people who were protesting yesterday and who have been engaging with us over the last couple of years.

Apart from some of the issues that I mentioned earlier on, the Private Members' Bill seems to accept the premise that pension rights are somehow exposed or at risk simply because they are not covered by industrial relations processes. This is far from true. Accrued pension entitlements represent property rights. Members of occupational pensions schemes already have available to them a range of recourses to vindicate their pension rights, for example, under relevant provisions of the Pensions Act 1990 or through the offices of the Pensions Authority and the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman of Ireland, FSPO. It is incorrect to assert that there are no avenues for redress for people who are in receipt of pensions.

Pension scheme trustees must act in the best financial interest of all scheme members, whether active, deferred or retired, and I made this point earlier. They must serve all beneficiaries of the scheme impartially. Trustees must always be consulted if a collective agreement refers to a pension matter. Furthermore, section 9 of the Bill proposes that retired workers' representative associations be permitted to refer trade disputes to the commission or the court, and that such representative associations be exempted from the requirement to hold a negotiating licence. In this case, the proposition is that representative associations of retired workers would be exempted from meeting the standards applied to those organisations representing workers themselves. This would be divisive and would potentially lead to claims for variation of the requirements governing negotiating licences.

A large proportion of the Irish workforce has no occupational pension. This is especially the case for younger people working in the private sector. The Government is trying to remedy this situation through a new auto-enrolment system. We must carefully consider whether a legislative proposal of this nature is the correct way of addressing the mischiefs and the concerns that Deputy Bríd Smith stated are the objectives of her Bill.

As I mentioned earlier, I have been informed that the proposed amendment to section 10 would not be of particular relevance to a large number of pension schemes. The majority of defined contribution schemes are unlikely to have pensioner members in such schemes. Members at retirement generally use their accumulated funds to buy an annuity or transfer to an approved retirement fund, ARF, and once this has been done the retiring member is no longer a member of the scheme. We might not, therefore, be able to reach all those the Bill intends to reach.

Pensioner benefits are already prioritised where a scheme restructuring occurs, with changes introduced in 2013 providing for 100% protection to pensions in payment of €12,000 or less; 90% priority given to pensions between €12,000 and €60,000; and 80% protection to pensions over €60,000. The 2013 changes were designed to spread the risk of scheme under-funding to all scheme member cohorts and to ensure a more equitable sharing of scheme resources, where restructuring is required, while still providing for significant protections to pension benefits already in payment.

Finally, the amendment proposed by section 10 may relate to a perceived lack of ability of pensioner members to engage with trustees and employers in the context of any changes to pension benefits payable from a scheme. However, this perception is incorrect. Where a restructuring of benefits is proposed, the employer and the trustees of a pension scheme are required to notify scheme members, beneficiaries, and authorised trade unions. Changes made to the Occupational Pension Schemes (Sections 50 and 50B) Regulations 2015 require trustees to also notify groups representing the interests of pensioners and deferred scheme members in these situations. This affords the representative groups an opportunity to make a submission to the trustees of a pension scheme in advance of any proposed changes taking effect.

These changes facilitate engagement between groups representing the interests of pensioner and deferred scheme members, the Pensions Authority, and the trustees of a person scheme. Specifically, before the trustees of a scheme make a section 50 application to the Pensions Authority, which could involve reductions to pension payments payable under a scheme, they must consult with the employer, the scheme member, pensioners and the authorised trade union representing members. Trustees must undertake a comprehensive review of the scheme, with a view to the long-term stability and sustainability of the scheme.

I am aware that Deputy Bríd Smith indicated her willingness to engage on constructive amendments. As I said earlier, the Government is committed to examining this Bill in closer detail. I am happy to have those conversations with Deputy Bríd Smith and others who are genuinely concerned and want to bring forward changes in this space.

As part of this process, there will be a consultation process with the other relevant Departments, the unions, employer bodies and, of course, the people themselves are concerned. I thank Deputies for their contributions here today and I look forward to engaging with them further on this matter in due course in the months ahead.

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