Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity) | Oireachtas source

Before I take up some of the points made by the Minister of State, will a copy of his speech be distributed to the Deputies in the House in order that we can look at it before the close of the debate itself?

A key point the Minister of State tried to make was that there are various interest groups involved, namely, employers on the one hand and employees on the other. He then introduced a third category, that of retired workers. We would argue that in reality the interests of workers and the interests of retired workers are one in the same. They should not be treated for the purposes of this debate as two separate categories. Retired workers are part of the workers' movement and they have common interests with people who are currently in employment.

The Minister of State made the point that occupational pension schemes are optional and that, if retired workers are given rights in the process, it could scare off employers from initiating and participating in schemes with the result that workers would have to pay more. A simple remedy is that the Minister of State no longer makes occupational pension schemes optional but makes them compulsory and makes it a duty of an employer to participate in them.

Points were raised towards the end of the Minister of State's contribution about a situation where there would be more trustees representing retired workers disproportionately as opposed to workers who are currently in employment. I do not necessarily see that situation arising. That is an issue that can be teased out on Committee Stage. It is not a reason for delaying the passage of this Bill for 12 months.

Last, but far from least, the Government has asked for more time. The Minister of State said it needed another year to tease these points out, as though this was a new issue that arrived on the scene yesterday or the day before. These are issues that have been knocking on the door for more than ten years. The Government has had more than ten years to address them. Now it is trying to kick the can down the road for another year. The ESB workers have already had their pay frozen for 11 years, while RTÉ workers have had theirs frozen for 13 years. However, the Minister of State is asking for more time. A cynic looking at the lines of argument the Minister of State is putting forward might think he is trying to kick the can down the road until such time as the majority of the country's retired workers have passed away and that will resolve the issue. We are not going to allow that to be the case. More importantly, the retired workers and their organisations will not allow that.

The amendment should be withdrawn. The Bill should pass Second Stage tonight and should go to Committee Stage. If there are issues that need to be addressed - I am sure there are - they can be dealt with on Committee Stage. There can be no more delays on this issue.

The Government is also open to a reasonable charge of hypocrisy on these issues. The gold-plated pensions of Ministers and the extraordinarily generous pension arrangements for all Deputies are one thing. Workers in occupational pension schemes, however, have to deal with a different scenario. One former leader of this country, Bertie Ahern, draws down €135,000 a year in pensions. I suspect he draws down more than that because that figure was the last information we could get before the blackout curtains came down on this area in 2016. Another former leader of the country, Brian Cowen, draws down €135,000-----

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