Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent) | Oireachtas source

Amendment No. 2 is in my name and that of my colleagues in the Regional Group. As the Minister will be aware, the reason we are here today is 15 months ago, my colleagues and I pressed for the inclusion of a sunset clause in the legislation, something that was accepted by all the Opposition groups and by the then Government. Had it not been put in place we might not be in a position where we are even discussing the legislation today.

When I spoke on the issue 15 months ago, I said that we would require the legislation for 12 months. Some Members were aghast that such legislation would be required over that period, but we have gone beyond 12 months and it is now 15 months later and we need to review the management of the virus and the approach that we are taking to it right across government. We need to see what works and what does not work and act in accordance with the evidence that it is now available to the Government.

As the Minister will be aware, last year when speaking in the House to the Taoiseach I was very critical of the fact that we were far too reliant on expert advice based on evidence coming from elsewhere in Europe and there was not enough focus on what was working in Ireland and could be effective in an Irish context. Opposition Members still do not have that evidence available to them, yet we are being asked to make a decision on this legislation.

I would love to be in a position where we do not require any draconian laws to be in place, but what is happening outside of this jurisdiction at the moment, in particular in the UK with the Delta or Indian variant, is something that we need to be conscious of. We have seen in the UK that the rate of infection with the Delta variant is increasing and some of the advisers to the British Government have said that while the cases are relatively low at the moment, the variant has fuelled exponential growth in the virus. There are concerns here. I have been speaking with a number of front-line healthcare staff in this country in recent weeks and they are genuinely concerned that hospitals will again be overrun with increased infection as a result of the Delta variant.

While the vaccine will impede the scale and severity of infection, it will not prevent people acquiring the infection and getting sick. There have been cases of people getting sick. We still need mask wearing. We still require social distancing and, sadly, we will require that for some time. We must strike a balance in terms of the public health measures that are needed against the virus and the variations of it and the scale of powers that is currently available to the Government. I believe that the current scale of powers is far too extensive. We do need powers. The Minister needs to have the ability to take emergency measures depending on what is happening in other jurisdictions, but there must be a balance and I do not think it is there at present. The justification has not been provided for it.

Under the legislation as it stands, the Garda have the ability to fine, arrest and to detain for very simple reasons. These are extensive powers that should only ever be reluctantly given by a Parliament. Last March, we reluctantly gave those powers, but they need to be rowed back upon now. They should only be extended on the express approval of Dáil Éireann.

I support Deputy Shortall's comments and the amendment tabled by the Social Democrats. However, if the Minister is not prepared to accept amendment No. 1, I hope he can accept our amendment. The Government is now announcing that it is winding down the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, from September, yet we are going to keep these draconian powers in place until at least 9 November, with the possibility of extending them beyond that, even when the PUP is null and void.

It does not make sense to have such extensive powers available to an individual Minister at the stroke of a pen, when the State itself is saying there will be no need to financially support people through the social welfare system and the PUP beyond September, and that payments are being wound down at that stage, yet this legislation remains in place. We are being asked to make a decision regarding this legislation blind, without evidence being provided. This is evidence that I have sought consistently over the past 12 months from the Head of Government, but we have not seen any of that here.

The amendment I tabled would mean these emergency powers cease on 9 September unless Dáil Éireann reconvenes by that date to extend them. If we still require such draconian measures by the beginning of September, then Dáil Éireann needs to reconvene anyway and be updated on what measures are being taken if we are not out of the woods in terms of Covid infection at that point in time. It is imperative that the Dáil comes back at that point and fully debates the juncture we are at, if we are still trying to manage significant outbreaks of Covid-19 throughout this country. That is why the legislation should not be extended beyond that point.

All of us have received a barrage of emails, and some of them are anti-everything while others are very genuine. I have an email here from Genghis Khan - I thought he was dead - who is against the PCR test, face masks, vaccines, and any kind of lockdown. However, many people are genuinely concerned about the impact this is having on the mental and physical health of the public. Many colleagues have spoken at length about the impact this is having on young people and older people in terms of their mental health and the question of diagnosis, particularly of cancer. These powers need to be used only at the most imperative times and, hopefully, we have moved away from that at this stage.

We are relinquishing responsibility. All Government and Opposition Members are relinquishing responsibility to an unelected body. One of those emails stated, “I did not vote for NPHET or Tony Holohan”. They did not. They voted for 158 Deputies here in Dáil Éireann to make the decisions and to seek the advice of Tony Holohan and every other Tony Holohan. Ultimately, however, we are the ones who need to make those decisions based on all of the evidence that is presented to us, but that evidence has not been presented to us.

Our amendment No. 51 states that if this legislation is passed, the Minister will have the power to make statutory instruments but those statutory instruments will only remain valid for as long as they have been endorsed by the Members of Dáil Éireann. It allows for a review mechanism of any statutory instrument that is signed by the Minister or his successor and that must be presented to Dáil Éireann within seven sitting days and ratified. It will be enforced in the interim but it must be reviewed within seven sitting days.

We have taken careful consideration in regard to the challenges and issues that are there. I accept things are not easy. I accept it is a crystal ball at the moment in terms of what is going to happen next week or next month. We are talking about the Delta variant and we could be talking about another variant in a month’s time that, unfortunately, might be far more resistant to the vaccines we have at the moment. I accept the risks that are there. I accept the Minister needs to have powers. I accept the principle but these particular powers are far too extensive. The evidence has not been provided to Dáil Éireann in terms of what works and what does not work, and what is the justification for each and every one of these particular measures.

At the very latest, this legislation should come back here on 9 September to be fully discussed, if Deputy Shortall's amendment is not accepted. I hope her amendment will be accepted and that we can discuss this before the recess. Second, any statutory instrument that is signed from here onwards must have a review clause whereby the Members of this House, the people who are directly elected and accountable to the people, have a direct role in saying it is the responsibility of whoever is the Minister to come in and justify why these particular measures are needed, rather than passing the buck and saying “NPHET said this” or “NPHET said that” behind closed doors. We know some of what NPHET says but we do not know some of the other evidence and we do not know the basis for that evidence because a lot of that is not being made available to us. Let us make the decisions. We have a responsibility to make those decisions and we should not remove that power from ourselves. I urge colleagues to support the amendments.

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