Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Sherlock for bringing forward this Bill. It is always good to have a constructive debate in this Chamber and I appreciate that the Deputy's intentions in this matter are absolutely in good faith, with a view to ensuring our social protection system works well for all our people.

Everybody in this House wants a system that abides by strong principles, one that delivers for its people and ensures they get the payments and services they need when they need them and that all information is given to them to ensure they are availing of the broad range of supports the Department of Social Protection provides. I do not believe in opposing Private Members' Bills for the sake of it. However, this Bill, as drafted, raises considerable complexities which could give rise to significant unintended consequences which I will set out.

Even before I became Minister for Social Protection, I was aware of - and as a local representative had personal experience of - the great work the Citizens Information Board does for people in local communities throughout the country. For many people, it is the first port of call for information on services provided by the State. The work done by the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, is also a vital support for many people. Indeed, I have had occasion to refer many people to MABS and they get excellent service there. The role of the Citizens information Board is set out in legislation and the agency has a very strong working relationship with my Department. However, this Bill, if enacted, will give inappropriate power to a State body under the aegis of my Department to scrutinise regulations, which could actually lead to delays in implementing urgent legislation. The appropriate place for oversight of the functions of Government is here in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Such scrutiny, by bodies other than these Houses, would lead to additional layers of bureaucracy when necessary, and often urgent, action is required. For example, if this proposed legislation had been enacted early last year, it would have meant that any regulations or legislation that needed to be enacted urgently would first have to be revised by the Citizens Information Board. That scrutiny is the job of the Oireachtas. To add an additional layer would have hindered the agile and responsive approach we took in providing immediate income supports to assist people financially impacted by the public health crisis caused by Covid-19. Many Deputies in this Chamber have rightly praised the work of the staff of the Department of Social Protection. While there needs to be a legislative basis for our actions, sometimes that action has to be swift so that the right policies are implemented to provide support to the right people at the right time.

This Private Member's Bill cuts across constitutional and statutory functions already in place, for example the Social Welfare Appeals Office, the Ombudsman and the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. Again, while I recognise the Deputy's good intentions of ensuring people can access and are aware of their entitlements, the Bill provides for an unnecessary statutory basis to underpin the excellent service the Department already provides to people in need. For example, the Department makes significant efforts in promotion and outreach work to make people aware of their social welfare entitlements. These include promoting the take-up of social welfare payments through numerous online and other media awareness campaigns. For example, the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, and I extended parent's leave and benefit to new parents. That was extended from two weeks to five weeks. There was a campaign around that and it worked very effectively because in the space of just a few weeks, more than 9,700 parents have taken up the additional leave. The recent campaign on the enhanced treatment benefit scheme regarding hearing aids also involved a national campaign both on social media as well as in print media. Even at the moment, my Department is running an ongoing campaign on broadcast media to make people aware of the current problems with scam phone calls. I again remind people that my Department will never ask for bank details over the phone. Please do not engage if you get any such phone call.

As Deputies will be aware, the Department also provides constant and ongoing advice on eligibility through its nationwide network of Intreo centres and call centres. With the easing of restrictions, Intreo offices are again open five days a week and our income support helpline also remains available. The Department regularly consults with customers through its customer fora and is also obliged to ensure its communications are in an accessible format for persons with disabilities. These are just a few examples of what my Department currently does but of course social protection is much more than the work of one Department.

The proposals in the Bill are focused on one Department but do not take due account of the complex range of services provided in the field of social welfare across the policy functions of other Departments. Delivery of social protection and achievement of social inclusion is not confined to the payment of benefits. As recognised in Article 45 of the Constitution and in reports like the National Economic Social Council, NESC's, Developmental Welfare State, social protection is a complex interaction of services, payments and active supports that cuts across health, housing, education, rural and community development and employment law. Accordingly, the development of social protection cannot be progressed in isolation but requires a whole-of-government approach.

Turning to the Bill itself, section 2 sets out high level principles to be adhered to in the social welfare system. However, such principles are already set out in Article 45 of the Constitution and in the Department's statement of strategy.

Sections 3, 4 and 5 make provision for the preparation of a social welfare charter. Again, this appears to be duplication with the Department's statutory requirement to produce a statement of strategy, follow public consultation procedures and for the published version to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. I remind Deputies that the Department of Social Protection also already prepares and publishes a customer charter and action plan.

Sections 6, 7 and 8 make provision for promotion of social welfare take-up. As I have outlined, my Department already invests significantly in promoting the take-up of social welfare payments and services in multiple media channels. I am absolutely open to working with the Deputy if he feels there are areas where we can improve upon this service. Allowing a person to view his or her PRSI contributions online, as suggested by Deputy Kerrane, is actually a very good idea and something I will certainly look at.

Section 9 provides for a support person to accompany a person during a social welfare interview. In reality, many customers of the Department are digital by desire. They apply to and interact with the Department online. Currently there is nothing, bar public health guidelines, to preclude a person accompanying a customer to an Intreo office. The Department also provides an official translation service where necessary.

Section 10 gives very extensive powers to the Citizen Information Board including pre-legislative scrutiny, which is normally a function of the Houses of the Oireachtas. Section 10(4) provides that:

The Board may do anything which appears to it be necessary or expedient for the purposes of, or in connection with, the performance of its functions under this Act or to be otherwise conducive to the performance of those functions.

This would create a situation whereby a Minister is held accountable by an agency of their Department to explain the rationale and merits of specific legislative proposals. This would be done in a context whereby the agency is legally responsible for reporting to the Minister who appoints all members to the Board. Article 28 of the Constitution is very clear that the Government shall be responsible to Dáil Éireann.

Section 10(5) of the Bill provides the Citizens Information Board with the right of access to any relevant information held by any Minister, the HSE, local authority or relevant public body that it may reasonably require for its functions provided in this Bill. Given the broad powers provided by this provision, it is very questionable that this would be in compliance with the principles of General Data Protection Regulation, GDPR.

Section 11 of the Bill provides that where the Minister proposes to make regulations under the Social Welfare Acts, he or she must inform the Citizens Information Board, notify the Houses that he or she has done so, and make the proposals publicly available. The board then has the opportunity to make recommendations in relation to the proposals with no time limit as to how long it may take to consider the draft regulations. When laying the regulations before the Houses, the Minister is then required to provide an accompanying response to the board's recommendations. This requirement, if enacted, would add considerable delays to the process of making regulations. It would have significant, costly and unnecessary intrusions into the business of Government and as I mentioned earlier it would actually have the effect of complicating and slowing down important work.

Section 12 provides for a duty to consider the effects of inflation. This provision does not take account of the fact that the Department undertakes a social impact assessment each year to assess the impact of social welfare measures contained in the annual budget process and how they impact on each income decile.

Section 13 makes provision for an annual report. The Department already submits an annual report every year. Again, this would represent a duplication of work.

I hope, in going through the Bill by section, the Deputy will accept my bona fides that my officials and I have examined the Bill in detail. I acknowledge the spirit in which it has been brought forward and the good intentions behind it but I regret that it would have many unintended consequences, so the Government cannot support it. However, I assure the Deputy and colleagues throughout the House that my officials and I are happy to work with them if there are areas they feel can be improved. We all want to ensure our social protection system works as efficiently and effectively as it can for all our people.

Since the onset of the pandemic, more than €7.6 billion has been paid through PUP, with in excess of 23 million payments issued to more than 850,000 people. During that period, in excess of 10 million phone calls have been answered by staff in the Department. That demonstrates very clearly that the Department wants to help and we are here to help people. Where improvements can be made I am happy to work with Deputies on them.

See this speech in context