Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent) | Oireachtas source

The Ceann Comhairle might let me know if Deputy Danny Healy-Rae arrives in the Chamber. If he does, I will share time with him.

I am pleased to speak in the debate on this Bill. Much of it draws on the cases that have turned up in the Supreme Court. It is very important that legislation that is made and passed in the Oireachtas applies equally to all citizens and will withstand the test of time. Sections 4 to 7, inclusive, amend provisions relating to mandatory sentences for second and subsequent firearms and misuse of drugs offences. Sections 8 and 9 provide for consequential amendments to the Criminal Justice Act 2007 and the Parole Act 2019 arising from the deletion of provisions set out in the Bill. Some parts of the legislation relate to provisions that go back to the foundation of the State. This reform is badly needed.

I want to put on record my support for the ordinary men and women of An Garda Síochána up and down the country. I salute the way they have been out on the front line doing their best. I spent a very pleasurable morning last Monday with the community garda in Ardfinnan and Cahir, Noel Glavin, who is a proud Cork man but has been based in Cahir for a long number of years. He visits elderly people in their homes as part of the community effort during the Covid crisis. It was wonderful to see, on that beautiful morning, a sense of hope in people after 13 long, arduous and frustrating months. I salute Sergeant Ray Moloney in Cahir and Sergeant Kieran O'Regan in Clonmel and their counterparts in other districts, as well as gardaí Jenny Gough and Claire Murphy. I thank all the gardaí in Cahir, Clonmel and throughout my county and the whole country who are out helping people in the spirit of the meitheal. Ní neart go cur le chéile. Cahir lost its community Garda car but, fortunately, it has been replaced. It is a dedicated community vehicle for the gardaí in the town. Gardaí must stand in the kitchens of the people if they want the support of the people.

It is very frustrating for gardaí when they go into court and their evidence is pulled asunder and every trick in the book is taken out to undermine them. It is, of course, the right of the accused person to have a proper defence and to be proven innocent, if he or she is innocent. The principle of innocent until proven guilty must always be the benchmark and standard to which we aspire. However, one sees people with 25, 30 or 40 charges against them and there is the whole situation with free legal aid. I firmly believe that it should be a case of three strikes and you are out. Some people think it should be two but I would say three. The situation is very frustrating for the Garda Síochána and it undermines the community support for gardaí. I was taken to task by the Taoiseach earlier today in this Chamber for expressing my feelings about certain issues. The point I was making is that we had a great country and we earned our freedom deeply. I told a story earlier in the House about the valiant fight for freedom in this country. Many of our rights have been stripped away from us during the Covid crisis though legislation that has been passed at regular intervals in this House.

We had a situation where the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, when introducing the main legislation dealing with restrictions, told Deputy McNamara and me that there were no provisions in the Bill to penalise, criminalise, fine or imprison a priest for saying mass or hearing confessions. He told us that and he has never corrected the record of the House. It is very easy for the Taoiseach to lecture me today but it is very important that Ministers, especially, would ensure, if they err or mislead the Dáil, knowingly or otherwise, that they correct the record. In this instance, it has not been corrected. I have asked the Minister for Health time after time to do so and I have discussed the matter with the Ceann Comhairle. The Taoiseach attended a meeting with church leaders last Thursday week. While they were meeting in one room, the Minister for Health was signing a statutory instrument which underpinned the provision in the legislation to which I referred, which he denied was in it, to criminalise priests and make them liable for a criminal offence. We see how priests such as Fr. Hughes, a wonderful man in Cavan, and many others have been brought before the courts. We saw what happened in Athlone last weekend.

There must always be a balance in things. Fair play is fine play with me. I am involved in the second community alert group that was set up in the country, in Newcastle. That is Caisléan Nua na Siuire, Tiobraid Arann theas. We were under Dungarvan Garda station but we are now back in the county boundaries in Tipperary. The Garda needs our support and it always must get it.

An issue arose today about taxi drivers not being allowed to hold a drive-by protest tomorrow. I accept that this would constitute a gathering, in the essence of the word, but the proposal was to drive by and not get out of their cars and interact with others. They were told clearly that if they did so, they would each be fined €100. People are only trying to protect their living or recover whatever living they had. These people invested in their vehicles. All self-employed people invest in their business and their career and many of them go on to give employment and support other families. All they are trying to do is rescue and regain what they have lost. Many of them do not have a rateable premises and did not, therefore, get any supports. While local authorities and departmental officials worked hard to try to help people, there just was not enough money to go around. That was the number one issue.

They were trying to protest. I might have given the impression that taxi drivers from Tipperary were coming. No. They contacted me to ask me to ensure I would support their colleagues in Dublin, who would represent them at Merrion Square in the morning. That is not happening now because the Garda has told those drivers clearly that if they turn up, they will be fined €100 each and there would be a possibility of a court conviction. That is a fact, so where could we go?

This Bill is vital. We have a proud record of jury service and I salute the members of the public who carry out the duty when asked. It is part of their civic duty and they must be looked after. We must also bring legislation to modernise the process. There should be an impact assessment of each piece of legislation once it is passed. We had this same debate as it related to a justice Bill that was debated with the Minister of State in the Chamber. It could be 20 years before an Act is reviewed so we can deal with glaring anomalies.

I support this Bill and I always support good legislation. No matter how good we make the legislation here, and regardless of the expertise in the Department, there is always room for correction because of unintended consequences. The Firearms Act 1965 required a mandatory five-year sentence for some convictions and this was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. There was reference in the notes to a gentleman being arrested with a sawn-off shotgun, bottles of petrol, stockings and other items. Anybody going around with such items, even if under the influence of drugs or alcohol - I pity the people who are - knows a sawn-off shotgun is a lethal weapon. It would cover the width of this building from ten or 15 feet and do untold damage. We cannot have people getting suspended sentences in such cases. People go out with such weapons with intent.

A person may have a shotgun in his own house with a licence. He may be shooting vermin because he is a farmer. I have heard of cases of such people shouting at intruders into their home that they have a gun and I have heard of cases where the gun was taken from them. There is a balancing act in defending a home, a family or oneself.

I wish the Minister of State well, as I have done in the past. The Minister has gone off to greater things and I wish her well in her voyage with her new baby. I hope all goes well for her and her family. I know the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, will take over the brief. There are many issues to deal with in the Department of Justice and goodness knows there is much work there.

We must try to reform free legal aid and change the adversarial system in the courts, with people before the courts sometimes being intimidated in the precinct of the court. There is no room for that and we must have the rule of law. The research note indicates sexual offences were being committed on minors and, even worse, sexual and other offences were being committed by minors. We must ask what is going on in society and in homes and schools. We must consider why this is happening while examining our education. It is so important that we have civil society that is proud of democracy.

It is why I am concerned with the question I had today about our democratic rights, particularly my democratic right to ask questions of the Minister for Health. I cannot get answers despite asking questions week in and week out. After the first week or two, I used my time to ask questions and seek written answers. The Minister has plenty of officials to take note of my questions but I have never got an answer. It demonstrates contempt for this House and for me and the people I represent. I am seeking the basic answers to the basic questions. We need them.

The Minister of State protested when Deputy Tóibín talked about public worship. That is enshrined in European law and decisions of the European Court of Human Rights. We have the longest lockdown in Europe, if not the world, and we are one of only three countries when we had level 3 restrictions that denied the right to worship. The others were Saudi Arabia and one of the Koreas and I would not like to be compared with those countries.

I spoke today about spiritual nourishment. I want the priests and clergy of all denominations to have the right to be declared essential workers. It is about this spiritual nourishment. There are people who want communion or confession on a daily basis. Their faith is so important to them, regardless of their religion. This relates to their mental and physical health. We will have fitter and healthier people.

Priests should be allowed to administer to their flock. There is a duty under their oaths of ordination but they are prohibited from doing this. We see what happened in Athlone in Sunday and what is happening with Fr. PJ Hughes. There is no need for it. The vast majority of people are obeying the rules and a few are going to pray. Our Lord spoke about a few gathering in his name being wonderful. We must look at that.

We must be sensitive. We must not have a repeat of what happened today, when taxi drivers were intimidated into abandoning their protest. They would not have been on the street or been a danger to anybody. They were not told that they could not go; they were told that if they went, they would be fined and there would be court proceedings. That is totalitarianism and the heavy hand of the law. I always ask people in my community to support An Garda Síochána. Men and women have given their life in this country for the uniform so we can have the freedom to sleep in our beds. There is a very thin line between that and anarchy. We need to support our gardaí. I again salute those who work under Superintendent William Leahy in Clonmel and Superintendent Denis Whelan in Cahir. They also have community teams in Tipperary town and all around. Some people are retiring so we need new recruits who can aspire to work in the Garda.

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