Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

First of all, I do not insult people. I do not go about trying to insult people. The Deputy referred to the cases raised by him, Deputy Paul Murphy and others yesterday. I told him he should send details of those cases to the HSE in the form of complaints that require investigation. It was stated here yesterday that a student nurse had to console a mother at the bedside of her dead baby. If that happened, it demands an investigation because that is an abuse of a student nurse clinical placement. It should not have happened. That is not spin. I have spoken to nurse educators across the country. I have been making a fundamental point in this regard. I made it yesterday and I make it again today. I believe in what I am saying because I brought in the programme in the first instance. If we want to change the programme and go back to the apprenticeship model, well and good; let us say that. I am genuinely of the view, however, that this would be a retrograde step for nursing.

Of course, Deputy Boyd Barrett juxtaposes this matter, as only he can, with the final of the reversal of the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI. That reversal was something he wanted to happen in 2016. He put a motion to the Dáil at that time to the effect that the FEMPI Act be repealed in its entirety. Does the Deputy know the implications of that? It would have paid the higher earners and higher pensioners back in 2016. If he had his way, they would have had their pension cuts reversed back in 2016 and not 2021, which is now the case. The only reason the Minister of Public Expenditure and Reform brought that in was because he had no legal alternative but to do so on foot of the Act that was passed in 2017. The latter states that the longest this reversal could be put off was to December 2020 and then a date would have to be named for the final reversal of FEMPI.

Maybe a bit of honesty in the debate would not go amiss from Deputy Boyd Barrett's perspective. He loves playing the divisive card and pitting one group against another. He wanted FEMPI ended in its entirety back in 2016 and stated that it was one of the hallmarks of repressive regimes, even dictatorships. He wanted it all gone in 2016, irrespective of high earners or low learners within the public service. The fact is that the reversal for highest earners have been delayed the longest period possible. I have the quotes from the Deputy. I went through his quotes at the time in the Dáil and in The Irish times. That was his position.

Coming back to the student nurses, the same applies to medical students, who have far more clinical placement hours. The same applies to pharmacology students, radiography students, physiotherapy students and occupational students. This goes to the heart of the model of education we want for healthcare personnel and professionals at all levels and in different disciplines. It is not as simple as the Deputy was trying to make out.

In the first wave, the HCA rate was paid because student nurses were formally brought on to fill rosters and to work. We have been told by nursing directors and the HSE that did not occur in the second wave of the pandemic and that the nurse education aspects of the clinical placements must be protected.

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