Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank my colleagues for a very detailed, useful and passionate debate. There are a lot of different views in this House, as there should be and needs to be. I have listened attentively and I have taken many pages of notes. Most of the Deputies who made points are not here but I will address the matters raised by those who are present.

Questions were raised repeatedly about golf. There is obviously a big golfing fraternity in the Dáil. Questions were also asked about third level students. There are 180,000 registered golfers and approximately 250,000 registered third level students in Ireland. If colleagues are suggesting that exemptions should be made for in excess of 400,000 people, assuming not too many third level students are registered golfers, I hope we would all agree that would pose a very serious risk to the great work and sacrifice everybody is making this week and for the next five and a half or six weeks to suppress the virus. The public health advice would strongly recommend against allowing 180,000 people to travel around the country to golf courses. We have, therefore, regulated against upwards of 250,000 students moving around. Obviously, it would only be some portion of those who would be travelling back and forth and they can still do so for essential family reasons.

I do not say this lightly. I do not like this situation, these laws or these powers. I was in opposition when the original emergency Bill was introduced. I was one of the Deputies, including the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, who sought a sunset clause. I think I spoke directly after the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I used the same word that she used in referring to the powers as "draconian". I agree with that description. This does not sit easily with me. I would much prefer that we were not here last night seeking extensions.

Deputies Boyd Barrett, Barry and their colleagues argued against the penalties and enforcement. While I accept that is a reasonable and important debate for us to have, what I would say to the Deputies is that the Bill before us reduces those penalties. Let us take face coverings. I think Deputy Barry strongly supported the use of face coverings. Right now, the only option available for a member of An Garda Síochána is a prosecutable offence, that is, to bring a person to court where a judge can impose on that person a fine of up to €2,500 or imprisonment of up to six months. That is not appropriate and I do not believe anyone in this House or country believes that is appropriate. What the Bill before us is doing is reducing that penalty and saying that is simply not appropriate. What is appropriate is an on-the-spot fine to be determined through regulation. Let us say €50 or whatever it may be.

For the offences where a person ends up in court, again, the Bill aims to reduce those penalties and create three tiers for a first, second and third offence. We need to bear in mind that this Bill is not about whether we should have enforcement powers. The Bill is saying that the enforcement powers we have are too strong and we need to create much more proportionate enforcement powers. That is what we are being asked here and that is the issue on which I am asking my colleagues to support the Government. This Bill is not about whether these powers exist; it is about saying the current enforcement powers are inappropriately high, so let us bring them down to an appropriate level. My belief is that they could be used at a more appropriate level, whereas at the moment they are far too cumbersome to use.

I do not know if Deputy Fitzmaurice is present, but he asked for clarification on whether I was alluding to him yesterday. I was not. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle also referred to my comments. My comments specifically related to Deputy Tóibín, who stated on the record, as a matter of fact, that no help was being provided by the HSE. That is factually untrue and grossly unfair on front-line clinicians and managers, many of whom have not had a day off since March and do not get to see their children because they are working such long hours. They are doing everything they can to support nursing homes. As Minister for Health, I simply do not believe I can let false statements like that stand in our national Parliament. I assure the House that throughout yesterday the HSE was engaged at length and in detail with what is a private nursing home. This is a private business.

2 o’clock

The first responsibility lies with the nursing homes. The HSE is conducting serial testing and providing specialist care, access to geriatricians and numerous supports in this case that I will not go into because it is an individual example. It has also provided staff. More can be done and always must be, but that is why I do not take anything away from the nurse in Galway who was crying on the radio, to whom the Leas-Cheann Comhairle referred. I cannot begin to imagine how horrific it is for anyone working in a nursing home where almost all the patients and staff contract Covid over a two or three-day period. That must be horrific. We have to support that nurse and everybody else working in nursing homes with mental health and counselling supports. We are wrapping significant funding, and other supports such as personal protective equipment and training in infection prevention and control, around these nursing homes. That is what we are endeavouring to do all the time and it is why those statements were made.

I thank the Labour Party and Deputy Howlin, who is present in the Chamber. I very much acknowledge the role taken by the party and accept the Deputy's challenges on the democratic front. Nevertheless, when he was a member of the Cabinet and I was in opposition, I do not recall any amendment of mine being accepted by the then Minister, although I certainly tabled many of them. While I may stand corrected, I do not recall ever during that period, which was another time of crisis, any statutory instrument being brought to the House for debate. I am very open to being corrected on that but that is my memory. I would, however, have made exactly the same points that Deputy Howlin made, were the tables turned. I accept and acknowledge that and the very responsible role the Labour Party has played.

Deputy Cullinane, too, is present in the Chamber. I accept the very good faith in which he and his party have engaged on this legislation and in which their amendments have been tabled, which we will discuss presently. One point, however, which I direct not at the Deputy but rather at Sinn Féin, is that it needs to stop speaking out of both sides of its mouth on this issue. Its party leader says the party supports the framework and, publicly, that she did not believe that it was appropriate to go to level 5 at the time that it was initially recommended, and nor did the Government. She stated she supports the move to go to level 5, yet several Sinn Féin Deputies have undermined that in the Chamber. I do not believe that is reasonable.

Sinn Féin needs to decide as an organisation whether it supports the recommendations from NPHET. One Sinn Féin Deputy described the framework as "dead in the water". That is a pretty serious statement for a lead Opposition health spokesperson to make. The framework was launched and supported by the Oireachtas. The country was at level 2, various counties then moved to levels 3 and 4, and the country has now moved to level 5. The measures now in place are the level 5 measures not as dictated by the Government but as advised and designed by NPHET. That is what we have implemented.

Sinn Féin is, of course, free to decide that it disagrees with NPHET, with the public health advice or with the country or individual counties moving to any level. That is an ongoing debate we should have. The party should, however, state whether it backs a public health-led approach, which is the approach we are taking, and what it means when it says the framework is dead in the water. Nobody else believes it is dead in the water. I fully acknowledge there is a constructive relationship in other ways, but the party needs to get off the fence and tell the people whether it supports a public health-led approach. Sinn Féin Deputy after Deputy has stated during the debate that the testing and tracing system has collapsed. That is absolutely untrue. Something happened over the weekend that should not have happened. There is no question about that and nobody is defending it, but it was an operational decision made by the HSE, which was dealing with an exponentially increasing number of positive cases. It scaled up the number of contact tracing calls by 400% in six weeks, not an easy thing to do.

I wish, as do all Deputies, that it had twice as many people for contact tracing. Nevertheless, in mid-September, it had 231 staff, while in four weeks' time, it will have 800 staff. It has assured me it can deal with 1,500 positive cases a day and carry out full contact tracing in respect of them. Intensive contact tracing is ongoing in all schools, which is one of the reasons the positivity rate in schools, in both primary and secondary, is approximately 2%, versus more than 7% in the community. If Sinn Féin honestly believes that the testing and tracing system has collapsed, fair enough, that is fair game. I strongly reject that, however. In the past seven days, the HSE has tested 117,000 people. It gives us one of the highest testing regimes anywhere in the world and it is all PCR testing, which is the gold standard.

The HSE is not getting everything right and it did not get everything right in respect of contact tracing. I am not defending that but it is doing everything it can. It built up a system from zero in the middle of a global pandemic. It has given us one of the highest testing rates in the world. I think we are in the top ten when microstates are excluded. Testing and tracing needs to be better and it is getting better. Not everything the HSE is doing is perfect, but its staff are coming into work every day and working very hard, as they have been doing for months. They are doing well, certainly by international standards. Currently, if someone wants to get a test in France or the UK, he or she cannot just phone a GP and get a same-day or next-day test. That does not exist anymore. In my view, we have to stop this pile-on anytime the HSE makes a mistake. It will make mistakes, as will I and the Government. We are dealing with a national pandemic; this is not business as usual. That is my view, although I fully respect colleagues' right to say whatever they want. I wanted to say a few words in defence of the people who are doing their damndest to run a testing and tracing system.

I again thank Deputies. It has been a useful and productive debate. As per my offer yesterday, I am more than happy to sit down with Deputies later to discuss any issues I have not covered. Many Deputies have made reasonable points about the regulations. They are extraordinary powers and they do not sit easily with me at all. They did not sit easily with me when the emergency legislation was passed and they still do not. I invite all Deputies, if they have views on the regulations, the measures, the levels of penalties or the best way in which we can fight the virus, to contact me directly. I would love to hear from anyone who has ideas.

See this speech in context