Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

I make a very strong appeal to the Minister to work with other parties in the House. We all want to work together, we recognise that we are facing a very significant threat to our lives and livelihoods. It is a national threat and there is a need for a national response. The best way of demonstrating that is for us to work on an all-party basis and to co-operate, collaborate and be very clear about the messages we are giving. The Minister's actions in handling this legislation work against that. The aim of these five amendments is purely to say that while we recognise that this is enabling legislation, we cannot possibly tell the Minister that yes, we will enable him to do whatever he wishes to do. At a minimum that would be highly irresponsible but neither is it the way that democratic politics works or should work.

We are saying to the Minister, in putting forward these amendments, that before he does the things that this legislation enables him to do, which involve imposing restrictions on people in their daily lives, on businesses and on a range of different activities, and before he decides what penalties should apply for breaches of the public health advice, that he bring those proposals to the House and that we work together to ensure they are the right ones. We should all aim to identify what will actually work. It should not be about political differences. It should be about taking everything into consideration, including the way people behave, what we know about human nature and what has worked in the past. On the basis of that experience and expertise, let us identify the best way of achieving what we all want to achieve.

The most important question is how we can ensure compliance with the public health advice. We know from human nature, behavioural psychology and what people such as Dr. Mike Ryan have been saying in recent days that telling people what to do and underpinning that in legislation does not work. We need to persuade people, bring them with us, convince them that the measures are the right ones and ensure they trust the Government and will work with it. We need that type of trust more than anything else at this stage. There are pressures on every aspect of the State response to the pandemic. People are becoming very concerned that testing and tracing and lots of other provisions are not working. There are increasing concerns about what is happening in nursing homes and whether we are facing into a repeat of what happened earlier in the year. We know the infection numbers are increasing at an exceptional rate. It is important that we work together and have an agreed approach if we are to bring people with us. That is what we are seeking to do in these amendments.

Many people will agree that, ultimately, we probably need some kind of sanction but, first, we must persuade and cajole people, provide the evidence for measures introduced and encourage them to comply. All of that must be done first and there must be good messaging. Unfortunately, the Government's messaging has been hopeless. Several weeks ago, the Taoiseach was talking about possibly using influencers to reach out to people, but he never did anything about it. With all due respect, "The Late Late Show" has a very limited appeal. The Government needs to use different influencers, people who will be listened to, whether in the sports world, music industry or any other area, by different cohorts of people, and use different platforms to get the message across. It has not tried any of those things and is instead jumping straight to penalties. That is going to get people's backs up and it is a big concern. Rather than getting people to come along with it, the Government will be encouraging them to work against it. That is the very last thing we need.

Dr. Mike Ryan has said that the Government must stop doing what it is doing. We must bring everybody along with us and get everybody working together to achieve the same objective. That objective is to reduce the rate of infections, save people's lives, get back to some kind of normality and keep the virus under control. We will not do that by taking the type of penalty-based approach the Government has adopted in the absence of anything else. I would happily accept the introduction of penalties as a last resort but they will not work as a first resort. That was tried in the UK and not only did it not work but it did damage. What we are asking for is absolutely reasonable. I have no doubt that if the Minister were on this side of the House, he would say exactly the same thing. He would say that we can pass the enabling legislation but it should be on condition that any regulations made on foot of it will require the approval of the Dáil. That is the purpose of these amendments and I appealing strongly to him to consider accepting them. He will have the support of the vast majority of Deputies in so doing.

I heard what the Garda Commissioner said at lunchtime. It is very clear that he does not want the Minister to take the approach he is taking. The Commissioner will do what he is told to do but we should listen to what members of the Garda are saying. Nobody is asking that this hardline approach be taken. It is heavy-handed, it is not a good idea and it will be counterproductive. I have no difficulty supporting this legislation if the Minister is prepared to accept these amendments. In the absence of the kinds of very reasonable safeguards they set out, it is completely unreasonable to expect us to give him a free hand and carte blanchein the regulations he introduces and the activities he decides will attract penalties. We cannot do that and nor can we allow him to dictate what the penalties should be. We would be failing in our job if we gave him that free hand. We all want the same thing and we must work together to achieve it. The issue is ascertaining the most effective way of going about it. We know from experience that penalising people from the very start is not effective. I urge the Minister to listen to what people are saying.

See this speech in context