Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

On Deputy Bríd Smith's comments on the Business Committee, I am not a member of it and I do not make those decisions. While I recognise she was in here working, the officials in my Department, the Attorney General's office and the Bills Office were working full tilt in the preparation of this emergency legislation. I know the Deputy knows that.

I mentioned to colleagues earlier that it is of course far from ideal that there was only a window of an hour and a half to table amendments. We had to bring the Bill to an incorporeal Cabinet meeting yesterday and I had worked on it the day before and last week as well. There was no intention to in any way, shape or form inhibit people from tabling amendments to the Bill.

The Business Committee makes the decision on the scheduling of business and I have nothing to do with it as Minister, and nor should I. I assume the Deputies will take me on my word on that, and with any other legislation we bring forward, we will always try to afford the appropriate time between Second Stage and Committee and Remaining Stages. We want to allow time for amendments to be tabled. It is the right and duty of Members to do that if they see areas in legislation they want amended. They should have the facility for that. At least this evening the Deputy has managed to put on the record what her amendment would have been. She can now decide what to do in that regard.

The Deputies mentioned the Traveller community. We should be cautious when mentioning Traveller representatives or representatives of any other ethnic or minority group so as not to identify groups in the context of Covid-19 spread or such matters. It may be well-intentioned but it is not helpful. I know many people in such representative groups have asked that this be avoided. I will not address the matter further today other than to say I am happy to take the discussion outside the Chamber. I and officials in my Department are in regular contact with the community and representatives on Covid-19 measures.

Deputy Ó Broin asked a question earlier and a circular will issue either this evening or tomorrow morning to all local authorities. The first aspect relates to local authority tenants who are not covered under this legislation. As happened earlier in the year, I have asked that the circular should indicate that forbearance is given by local authorities to local authority tenants. To answer Deputy Ó Broin's question, I will follow that up and ensure that happens. We did it before and we will do it again.

On the question of how the needs of the Traveller community are addressed, I have given significant extra funds in the budget to permanent Traveller accommodation as well as Covid-19 measures and additional assistance that may be given in order to allow people or families to self-isolate or shield. There will be no movement off public land. If local authorities need to work with the community to ensure there is no overcrowding on certain sites, I have given a large degree of latitude on that. I am happy to write to the Deputy separately on that and give him a full update. I will ensure he gets that tomorrow via email. It is a really important matter and I am absolutely committed to ensuring we do everything possible to protect all communities and particularly those that are more vulnerable. If the Deputy has any additional queries, he can certainly get back to me.

I will address some of the points raised by Deputy Boyd Barrett. Some of them have been rehashed from the points raised in July by Deputies Boyd Barrett and Mick Barry. I specifically remember Deputy Barry's contribution as both he and Deputy Boyd Barrett predicted an opening of the floodgates in evictions, with a massive increase in homelessness and tenants being thrown out on the street. The Deputy engages in melodrama from time to time.

I am thankful that prediction did not come to pass. The Deputies are entitled to their view but they must also recognise what has happened. Deputy Boyd Barrett described what happened to his constituent, Brian, and such a case should never happen. I have figures for eviction notices between 29 March, when the blanket eviction ban was introduced, and the end of July, when we transitioned to more permanent measures. There were 303,023 registered tenancies in the country and 42 notices of terminations were issued. This means that with 42 tenancies, the landlord disregarded the protections. Brian, Deputy Boyd Barrett's constituent, was, unfortunately, one of those 42 cases.

The Deputy said his evicted tenant did not raise the matter with the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, and neither of us would particularly like to force anybody to do something even when the law is in place. These are the facts, however, and the compliance rate was 99.98% in that time. As an older man, Brian may not have wished to engage with the system. I am sure the Deputy, as his representative, did everything he could to assist him, and continues to do so. I urge the local authorities to do what they can as well. However, there were 42 cases like that. We should be clear on the reality.

In July and again tonight, Deputy Pat Buckley was prone to overstating or exaggerating the current position. We have a serious homelessness problem and we are addressing it. I am committed, like all Deputies and the Government, to doing that. Let us not stoke fear in people either, as that happened in July. Deputies speak about trepidation in tenants, and we certainly want to strengthen protections in short-term tenancies.

We should look at what happened when the new regulations were introduced. From 2 August to the end of September, there were 844 28-day warning letters issued. How do I know the number? The RTB was able to tell me the number because in the Act we passed in July, we gave the RTB the ability to get that number. The Deputies opposite, including Deputy Boyd Barrett, Deputy Ó Broin, his party and others opposed the Bill. We now have the ability to see these numbers and how they relate to people in arrears. Those 844 28-day warning letters had to be copied to the RTB because of the legislation brought forward by the Government and passed by the Members who voted for the Bill. Of that total, 182 notices of termination were issued and 174 self-declarations were requested and received. There has been one referral to the Money Advice & Budgeting Service so far. The more permanent measures, particularly around arrears, will work, as 22% of tenancy disputes in 2019 related to arrears. I am not saying the system is perfect and I mean no disrespect to the Deputies.

I will turn to the Deputies who proposed amendments Nos. 2 and 3. I cannot accept them. The temporary prohibition on tenancy terminations under the Bill operates when section 31A of the Health Act 1947 is in force to restrict the movement of people. This means that when we hardwire this legislation, it ties any further protections like these emergency protections to the 1947 Act, ensuring they can be introduced automatically. It is a very strong protection.

This provision is intended to be agile and it activates and deactivates when tenants most need our help. It operates on top of the protections that exist already under the 2004 Act and the Residential Tenancies and Valuation Act 2020 that most of us voted for in this very Chamber in July and which came into effect from 1 August. The provision is intended to be fair and it recognises the need to complement the restriction of movement provided for by health regulations while limiting the infringement on property owners' rights.

People have commented on the advice given by the Attorney General. We should not really be debating it in the Dáil and suffice it to say the Attorney General is the legal officer and adviser of the Government. Lawyers and barristers may disagree and most of the time we could find somebody with a contrary view but it is our job in the Government to have very serious regard to such opinion. I was struck that Deputy Ó Broin referenced the Supreme Court in what was almost a throwaway manner. He implied that the Attorney General would advise but we would not have to abide by it and the Supreme Court could adjudicate the matter.

That would be a fine way to introduce legislation in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Simply passing a Bill and waiting to see what happens would effectively abrogate the responsibility of the Dáil and the Seanad and kick the problem up to the courts. That would be a most irresponsible way to bring legislation forward. I note that neither of the two Bills the Deputy has brought to this House since the formation of this Government have been referred to the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers. That is fine. It is his and his party's choice. One would have thought, however, that since the service is available to Members they would use it to check that the Bills they bring forward are actually constitutional and legal. Merely being written down does not make them so. We cannot play fast and loose with legal advice given to the Government or with Bunreacht na hÉireann. The Constitution is not a pick-and-mix document. We cannot choose to apply the parts we like and disregard the parts we do not. People may get some insight into some Members' feelings on the primacy of the Constitution from their view that it can be set aside if it does not suit a political or personal belief. That is a dangerous and frankly a somewhat horrifying proposition.

I cannot place a six-month blanket ban on tenancy terminations without a proper justification arising from a social and common good. We need a functioning rental sector. It is already under strain, and arbitrary changes that affect confidence in the sector will drive good landlords out of it. That has been happening, whether we like it or not. I have heard the Deputies opposite rightly saying in the national media that most landlords are good people who own just one or two properties. That describes 86% of landlords. We do not want to drive them out of the market as well. We need to provide more public homes, and that is what I and this Government intend to do. We will bring forward affordable rental options for those who cannot access social housing schemes. As I said earlier, we will deliver 12,750 homes next year.

The Bill is underpinned by the prevailing public health advice. The collective will of the Government is behind the regulations introduced under 31A of the Health Act 1947. I cannot accept either of the amendments from Deputy Ó Broin or Deputy Cian O'Callaghan. I recognise that they put them forward for genuine reasons. We cannot tinker with timelines in emergency legislation rooted in the Minister for Health's powers under the Health Act 1947. It would not be legally sound.

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