Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I will have concluded by then, le cúnamh Dé. Míle buíochas, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I rise to support the Bill. I welcome the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, and the Minister, Deputy McConalogue, and I congratulate them on their appointments.

The issues are well articulated. My colleague, Senator Annie Hoey, articulated the Labour Party position in the Seanad. While the legislation is necessary, it gives rise to many questions, one of which is forestry policy in its totality. The Labour Party is not convinced that this Bill alone is the answer or the panacea to the problems that exist within the forestry sector at present. I believe the Minister and the Minister of State acknowledge there are problems inherent with the process. We need to have these issues rectified if we are serious about ensuring we have a seamless, fit-for-purpose forestry sector that recognises the challenges of afforestation and increasing beyond 11% the rate of cover. We must also recognise that the process of applying for licences is clearly not fit for purpose. We need to investigate further after this legislation is passed, and presumably it will, why the process is not working. We are all aware, across the party divide in the House, that it is not fit for purpose currently.

I ask that a lot of energy is given to ensuring that once the Bill passes, there is a root and branch review of policy in general so the requisite staff are appointed and the requisite whole-time equivalents are appointed. We are told that additional staff are being appointed within the forestry service but we do not have a clear number of staff and the type of staff that are being appointed. Much of the work could be done internally on the licence screening process, with regard to triage of applications and in the assessment of the ecological or environmental impact elements, without diminishing the right of anybody to appeal.

There is much in this legislation that gives voice to regulations that will have to come into force after the Bill has passed. The Labour Party is worried about the number of regulations, as articulated in the proposed new section 14E. I would dearly love the Minister of State to respond specifically to the point I am about to make. I note that her officials are present. Section 14E provides for 14 regulations that must come into force. For this legislation to be taken seriously, the question that arises is when this will happen. What is the timeframe for bringing those regulations into force once the legislation has passed? According to the proposed new section 14E(1):

Without prejudice to the generality of sections 7(2) and 15, for the purpose of the conduct of appeals, and having regard to the need for efficiency in the system of appeals, the Minister may make regulations to provide for all or any of the following:

The section goes on to list potential areas of regulation in subsections (a) through to (n), providing, inter alia, for "time limits to apply to the making and conduct of appeals"; "the constitution of divisions of the Forestry Appeals Committee and the assignment of appeals to those divisions"; and "the form and manner of making of requests by the Forestry Appeals Committee for information from a party to an appeal, or a person other than a party". If we do not have sight right now of the timeframe, it could be argued that notwithstanding the bona fides of the Minister and Minister of State present in the Chamber in seeking to have this issue addressed, there is a danger that if those timeframes slip and are not tight there will be no systemic change in this process, notwithstanding the subdivision of the FAC, and there could be as many delays in the licensing process in the future as there are now. If we had some sight of how the Minister will deal with these regulations and when they will be put into force, that will give great confidence to the forestry sector and would allay some of the fears of people in the forestry sector. I ask the Minister to address that issue in response to the Second Stage debate.

We talk about afforestation policy and there are programme for Government commitments, but we are seriously lagging behind. I am not trying to make a party political point on this because we all agree on afforestation in this House. We want to see clear targets and we want those targets to be met. We want to ensure that the Minister with responsibility for biodiversity will set out a pathway for those afforestation targets to be met, and that we achieve targets greater than 8,000 in 2021 to offset the missed targets in 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017 and 2016. Ireland is abysmally behind the curve, and I say this in a spirit of co-operation. This Minister and the Government have an opportunity now really to hammer home the idea that Ireland needs to nudge well past the 11%.

That is something the Government would get support for, but only on the basis that it is not just blanket cover but an afforestation policy that ensures that biodiversity is not damaged in any way. I am stating the obvious as far as the Minister of State is concerned. The issue of afforestation and forestry policy needs to have a radical basis now. The Joint Committee on Climate Action in the last Dáil published a report containing clear targets which had cross-party support. The Minister of State will find that if she is radical in her approach to this, she will have the support of the majority of the Members of this House.

On the issue of fees I would ask the Minister of State to consider the impact of levying a fee. The Minister, arguably, is silent on the issue of the amount of the fee. It is another issue that will be given over to regulation or statutory instrument. What people want is certainty with this legislation. If the Minister of State is of a mind to instigate a fee - and it seems from her speech that she is absolutely clear on the need for a fee - we cannot have a situation where ordinary people, such as those for whom Deputy Martin Kenny spoke in places like Leitrim, are locked out of a process. Ordinary people cannot be locked out of the process by dint of the fact that there is a fee put in their way that arguably diminishes their right to make a genuine submission to an appeal. I ask the Minister to revisit that issue.

I repeat the point made earlier on the numbers and types of staff being appointed at present. How many people have been appointed in the past number of months since the Government was formed and across what positions? What are the proposals to appoint new people in the forestry service? Again, I reiterate the point that the Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture must come together and work with the Minister and Minister of State to shine a light into how the forestry service operates and unlock any of the impediments to the granting of licences in a way that balances the needs of industry with ensuring that the ecology and the environment are not damaged or put upon in any way. The committee must give a voice to all of the stakeholders and contextualise the more 9,000 submissions in public. If we are to agree a position on the workings of the forestry service, we must have an opportunity to have a hearing or some public articulation and give further voice, after this legislation is passed, to how we feel the forestry service needs to operate. We must hear from independents and others within the sector as to how they feel the forestry service should operate. I am talking about the stakeholders within the industry who are affected by the decisions of the forestry service day in, day out.

I also wish to give voice to the frustration of people, some of whom will also have contacted the Minister of State. I know of one forestry application that was 823 days in the system with no decision. I have learned of other applications that were 681 days, 713 days and 520 days in the system with no decision. It is unconscionable for any modern public or civil service to take that long to process an application or an appeal. It beggars belief. I know that the Minister of State is conscious of this problem but we need to get to a stage where this is no longer happening and the sooner, the better.

I do not wish to tarry. I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on the issue. I have asked very specific questions and hope that they will be answered when the Minister of State responds at the end of this Second Stage debate. The Labour Party is generally supportive of the Bill but there must be a root and branch review of how the forestry service operates when all of this is over. That needs to happen as soon as possible.

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