Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am glad to have an opportunity to speak on this particular amendment. I can well understand the thinking behind Deputy Howlin's amendment. Some of us will always have reservations about such measures from a civil libertarian point of view. I know that many people in the House have such reservations. However, in the particular set of circumstances in which we find ourselves, the issue has broadened out. With no disrespect to Deputy Howlin or the Deputies who have supported the amendment, if we keep going this way I fear pubs will not be able to reopen at all. I have spoken to as many publicans as anyone else in the House, and from the very outset they have always argued that they should be allowed to open their premises subject to strict application of the regulations. They have repeated that many times, including in the last few days. I believe they are right. If the regulations cannot be strictly enforced, the case for reopening the pubs is weakened and some may never reopen. Maybe some people want to change the way we live in this way.

The other side of the coin is this. Pubs cannot reopen if it means such scenes as took place in a bar in this city, where people drank, ad-libbed and danced on the counters. A situation like that, with no regulations at all, is not in the interests of the publicans who have made a genuine case for their ability to make a living at the present time. I know there is a sunset clause which will considerably curtail the legislation. If circumstances arise which were not anticipated in the drafting of the Bill, I am sure the legislation can be changed. Unfortunately, we do not live in ordinary times. We live in very difficult ones. The virus is still around and is changing by the hour. It is still rampaging almost as it did in the beginning. We have to live with it, controlling it by curtailing our own activities. We also have to be able to live.

The best way to achieve that equilibrium is by ensuring we put in place sufficient safeguards to enable us to say that publicans are compliant. The fact is that publicans want to comply and they do not want to be told there will be no enforcement. They know that if there is no enforcement and no legal backup, they will have a very much reduced case for the reopening of their premises.

We in County Kildare have just come out of a second, extended lockdown. As I said last night in the House, it was not a great experience. There was a lot of negativity and pessimism around it and a lot of finger pointing and accusations. There have been many outbreaks of Covid throughout the country, in meat factories and elsewhere, including in various premises where an effort was being made to comply with regulations and do the best that could be done to safeguard people. The measures taken did not always work but a fair effort was made and it did curtail the onward march of the virus to a very considerable extent. It did not eliminate the virus, nor could it eliminate it.

Many speakers have referred in this debate to the reality that we have to live with this disease. The only way we could eliminate it would be to close down all the ports, airports and businesses. That did not work in a number of other places where it was attempted. References to totalitarian states are very unfair and unnecessary and they are ill becoming of the standards normally set in this House. If we want to introduce some kind of freedom to a business sector where owners make their living by providing entertainment for people in communities, we have to give them a chance to show they can do so safely. We must allow them to reopen their premises in accordance with regulations which they themselves want to see enforced in a way that will protect them and their customers in all circumstances.

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